Daniel 7

[Marilyn C]

47 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t see it that way at all.

1) Yes, the 4 different types of metal certainly have different strength to them, and they also have different value to each of them. 
However, neither of these two characteristics are used to determine the number of kingdoms. Gabriel will mention the 4th kingdom is as strong as iron but that is to describe how it will conquer and trample over nations, but this is not being used to determine if is a kingdom.

1) in all 4 kingdoms, they are purposely differentiated by the “type of metal only - not by their strength.” Babylon, Medes-Persia , nor Greece are identified as separate kingdoms but the “strength” or even the “value” of the metal type. 

2) each is differentiated by their metal type and there are only 4 metal types. 

 

Charlie, that is incorrect. The Kingdoms are differentiated by their Body parts. You can`t get past that. 

`Iron` means strong and `clay` weak, they are just descriptions of STRENGTH, nothing more.

There are NO scriptures to say that God brings back the Roman rulers from the dead.

[Charlie744]

41 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Charlie, that is incorrect. The Kingdoms are differentiated by their Body parts. You can`t get past that. 

`Iron` means strong and `clay` weak, they are just descriptions of STRENGTH, nothing more.

There are NO scriptures to say that God brings back the Roman rulers from the dead.

The strength you are referring to in chapter 2 is a characteristic of how they will conquer the other nations .

There are 2 ways Gid is identifying the last 3 kingdoms- by the type of metal and the associated body parts of a man. 
 

There is no question that the next succeeding kingdom has a metal type that had a different metal strength and value, but that is not a determinant in identifying a kingdom. 
 

Man has interpreted each of the four kingdoms by their relative strength and value of the metals. But God is not identifying the 4 kingdoms that way… He has already symbolized each of the 4 kingdoms by the TYPE of metal AND the associated body parts of a man.

 

So, let’s just focus on the 4th kingdom. It is identified in two ways- it is associated with the legs and feet of a man (both represent the 4th kingdom together), AND it is made up of iron and clay (the clay is not a separate kingdom, it is found within the 4th kingdom). 
 

I would ask you consider this before we might move forward to the next very important verses - 2:41-43, since these speak to the actual dividing of this same 4th kingdom (which directly affects the clay and the reason why the 4th kingdom is divided). It also establishes the timeline- meaning, it is not an end time event but takes place at the time of the Messiah .

I understand how difficult it is to consider a new interpretation— especially, when EVERYONE ALSO BELIEVES THE WAY YOU DO. But please try and give these some thought before rejecting them as opposed to responding with your interpretation. I will try to provide the reasoning behind my interpretations. 
 

This is NOT an easy assignment for you but I can assure you it was the most challenging and complicated assignment for me to understand “today’s accepted interpretations” and learn why they had to be incorrect WITHOUT having any knowledge of Daniel. It is because they did not focus on how these verses focused on the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation. But rather they took an “historical” approach that attempted to match these verses to our history books. 
 

Thanks again… and I would also welcome others to offer their own thoughts / reasoning BEHIND their interpretations… I already know their interpretations, but not the reasoning behind them. 

[Marilyn C]

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

I understand how difficult it is to consider a new interpretation— especially, when EVERYONE ALSO BELIEVES THE WAY YOU DO.

Charlie, this view is an old view because they thought the iron meant Rome in both places - legs and feet. Then they saw the EU forming and thought it was the RRE. 

It is not and there is NO scripture to prove it, just opinion and assumptions.

We may need to end here for we see differently.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Charlie, this view is an old view because they thought the iron meant Rome in both places - legs and feet. Then they saw the EU forming and thought it was the RRE. 

It is not and there is NO scripture to prove it, just opinion and assumptions.

We may need to end here for we see differently.

Ok and I am sorry we could not get past the number of kingdoms and their identities. But, thanks for your consideration, best wishes, Charlie 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok and I am sorry we could not get past the number of kingdoms and their identities. But, thanks for your consideration, best wishes, Charlie 

And thank you for the polite discussion. 

Now, before closing I would like if you could ponder on - who has PROVEN to be `terrifying` (Dan. 7: 7) over the past few years - the EU or Islam.

I also pray that one day you would even look at the Contemporary view of Dan. 7. I use it to unbelievers as a good way to show how God`s word reveals exactly which great powers are in control in our world at the moment - the first 3 beastly kingdoms are those of the G7 and Main powers of the G 20 & control the UN, (religious arm of the Global Government. 

Unbelievers can tell you the emblems of those great powers. The world even calls them the Big 4 or the Quartet of Power.

Something to think about.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

And thank you for the polite discussion. 

Now, before closing I would like if you could ponder on - who has PROVEN to be `terrifying` (Dan. 7: 7) over the past few years - the EU or Islam.

I also pray that one day you would even look at the Contemporary view of Dan. 7. I use it to unbelievers as a good way to show how God`s word reveals exactly which great powers are in control in our world at the moment - the first 3 beastly kingdoms are those of the G7 and Main powers of the G 20 & control the UN, (religious arm of the Global Government. 

Unbelievers can tell you the emblems of those great powers. The world even calls them the Big 4 or the Quartet of Power.

Something to think about.

Thanks Marilyn. I can assure you that the book of Daniel is all about the first coming of the Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. 
 

Verse 7:7 is the verse that reveals the 4th kingdom that comes after Greece. The kingdom of iron is Rome- specifically, it is pagan Rome which began around 63 BC, and was the kingdom in place when the Messiah arrived to begin His ministry in  27 AD. 
 

God is not writing or prophesying about the future nations or powers some 2000 years after His arrival. He is writing to the Jews prophesying about the most important time to n the history of man - the arrival of God on the earth. 
 

He purposefully revealed the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that are RELEVANT to His plan of salvation for mankind. 
 

Consequently, He begins the book of Daniel as they are taken away to Babylon- the 1st of the 4 kingdoms and then He takes us straight through the next 2 kingdoms before He reveals the time of His coming IN THE LAST WEEK OF THE 70 Weeks of years prophecy. 

Do you believe the 70 weeks of years prophecy is end time? God has given His people the book of Daniel so they will, hopefully, interpret it to reveal the time of His coming. 
 

There is NO interest on God’s part who may come to power some 2000 years in the future. He is only interested in whether each person will come to accept His sacrifice and believe He is our Lord and Savior. 
 

This is why He came… to offer a the only way to salvation. 
 

The last of the 4 kingdoms (chapter 7) or beasts (chapter 8) that come out of the sea is Rome and Daniel tells us this kingdom, will continue until the end of time. Chapter 7 tells us that pagan Rome will be slain and its body destroyed to be succeeded or taken over by the New Roman kingdom which will become known as papal Rome and headed by the little horn. 
 

The Christian Church was clearly appropriated by the little horn and it would take the place of Imperial Rome near the 500 AD timeline—- just as was prophesied in Daniel. 
 

I am not attempting to make you accept these interpretations but I would ask that you take another look at chapter’s 2,7,8,9 and 11 for they ALL speak about the time period from 606 BC to approximately 500 AD when the little horn and papal Rome come to power. 

Thanks, Charlie 
 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

God is not writing or prophesying about the future nations or powers some 2000 years after His arrival. He is writing to the Jews prophesying about the most important time to n the history of man - the arrival of God on the earth. 
 

He purposefully revealed the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that are RELEVANT to His plan of salvation for mankind. 

Charlie, the comprehensive plan of salvation was not revealed in the old testament.    There are components in the old testament, such as the messiah cutoff but not for himself.  But not everything put together in one precise passage of what the plan of salvation was to be.

The comprehensive plan of salvation was not revealed until Luke 24:44-48 after the resurrection, by Jesus.

Luke 24:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

 

[Sister]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:59 AM, Marilyn C said:

Just a point here Sister. God has judged Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome rulerships. (eg. Dan. 5: 25 - 31)

There will be NO REFORMED kingdom.

There are NO scriptures of RRE. 

Hi Marilyn

 Daniel 2:33   His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

 Daniel 2:34   Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

 

The legs of iron was Rome.  The old Rome finished at the legs.

The next kingdom starts at the feet and finishes at the toes.  It has iron in it.  It's a reformed Rome, .....not the same as before but different.

The fourth beast is specifically mentioning this reformed Rome, because the 10 toes come out of the new (the feet), not the old (the legs).

The British Empire, and the USA came up out of the feet and is working with the new reformed Rome.  There are other nations working with them also. This is a confederate kingdom and ruling today.  We are coming to the toes.  When the 10 toes are given power to rule as kings, the false prophet will come out of them.  The 10 kings and the FP will rule for only 3.5 yrs, then their end comes.

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Marilyn

 Daniel 2:33   His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

 Daniel 2:34   Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

 

The legs of iron was Rome.  The old Rome finished at the legs.

The next kingdom starts at the feet and finishes at the toes.  It has iron in it.  It's a reformed Rome, .....not the same as before but different.

The fourth beast is specifically mentioning this reformed Rome, because the 10 toes come out of the new (the feet), not the old (the legs).

The British Empire, and the USA came up out of the feet and is working with the new reformed Rome.  There are other nations working with them also. This is a confederate kingdom and ruling today.  We are coming to the toes.  When the 10 toes are given power to rule as kings, the false prophet will come out of them.  The 10 kings and the FP will rule for only 3.5 yrs, then their end comes.

 

 

 

Hope you do not mind Sister but I have a different view on this — it is one that is based on the coming Messiah (then) AND His plan of salvation- from the cross the end of time.

There is only 4 kingdoms not 5. The 4th kingdom is indeed Rome and it covers both the legs and the feet. It is all one METAL OF IRON. It is the type of metal and the body parts (both legs and feet), no different that the two parts of the 2nd (arms and chest) and the 3rd kingdom (thighs and belly). 
 

The ONLY difference in the 4th kingdom is that it is show to include a non-metal element WITHIN IT. And this is indeed quite purposeful. 
 

The iron legs and feet represent pagan Rome AT THE TIME IF THE COMING MESSIAH. It was also the time when the JEWS had completed the 69 weeks of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Meaning, the only remaining piece to be restored after Babylon was the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant in the Sanctuary. This would be fulfilled by the Messiah who would begin His ministry on the very first day of the 70yh week.
 

It is DURING this last 7 years when the Messiah would fulfill His Gid given mission (9:24). He would confirm the New Covenant DURING (not for) this last week. 
 

Unfortunately, the Jews failed to fulfilled their God given mission to preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One and only true God, to the gentile world. Not only did they keep Him to themselves, but they repeatedly disobeyed His commands and laws as well as to too often, turn to idolatry.

So, now at the end of the 69 weeks of the prophecy, their Messiah would come as prophesied. Not ONE accepted Jesus as their Messiah. It would require His resurrection BEFORE any would accept Him as the Son of God who sacrificed Himself for the payment of our sins. 
 

AFTER the cross, there would still be many (most) who would still not accept the risen Christ as their prophesied Messiah. Meaning, there would be two very separate groups of Jews: those that accepted Jesus as their Messiah, and those that would continue to reject Him.

 

This is the reason why there is “clay” found WITHIN the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Jesus did not come to destroy but to divide! 
 

In verse 2:34, contrary to ALL ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS, does NOT reflect the “Stone” ( Messiah) striking the FEET (only) and destroying the entire image. Jesus, the “Stone” came to strike the FEET and separate or divide the clay from the iron (feet). The clay (Jews) were encased within the iron feet (meaning, they were a small nation totally controlled and under the oppression of the iron (pagan Rome).

 

Jesus did not come as the Jews expected - to come as a conquering King and destroy Rome. He came to separate or divide His people in a non-military manner. AFTER the cross, Jesus would be the “Potter” and select those Jews (clay), who would accept Him- they would be symbolized as “pottery clay” in verses 2:41-43. Those that continued to reject Him would continue as “ceramic clay”, meaning they were too hardened to be used by the Messiah: they would never be willing to be molded by the Messiah and used to go out into the world preaching the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus. 
 

So, 2:34 is the Messiah “dividing” the 4th kingdom- it would begin His church and those Jews that rejected Him would continue in their pre-cross ways. 
(Verse 2:35 is the true end time prophecy when Jesus WILL destroy ALL the elements, kingdoms, etc., and bring in His Kingdom. 
 

As you know, the cross did not destroy or remove pagan Rome. Pagan Rome would continue for another 400 years when it would cease to be. This was a gradual decline over the coming 400 years and is reflected in chapter 7 when Daniel records the 4th beast will be slain and its body is destroyed (that is pagan Rome). 
 

But pagan Rome will be replaced by another power. It is replaced by what we call “papal Rome. Papal Rome will come to full power as found also in chapter 7… they started as the growing Christian church COMING OUT OF THE 4th beast until it would “sit atop” the 4th beast kingdom (the growing Christian church became so powerful by the late 5th century. It is also recorded in chapter 7 that the “little horn” would come out if the 4th kingdom (AFTER the cross) and he will ALSO climb to the top of the beast. Meaning, unlike Paul, John and the first generation Christians who were ONLY interested in preaching the Goid News to the world, those gentiles that accepted Jesus would try and succeed to gain personal power and prestige over this growing and powerful Church. They became more interested in power, control and supremacy over all the people in the movement. And the winner is “the bishop of Rome” who would become the pope. The little horn is indeed the papacy that would now become the “divided” kingdom of Rome. Still only 4 kingdoms in God’s plan but the 4th was divided. 
 

And it goes on to say that he will continue until he is destroyed without human hands- (second coming). 
 

This 4th (divided) kingdom will symbolize not only the control of all religious matters but also all secular matters. And for almost 1300 years, they did exactly that. But today’s 4th kingdom is still the same (Catholic Church still dominates the Christian world and despite the Reformation, the Protestant groups are not too far removed from them. As far as the secular concerns, papal Rome continues to what to being ALL matters under their control but just as in the time of pagan Rome, where all peoples, including the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms in the image were folded in to pagan Rome, the rest of today’s world acts no differently than they did. 
 

So sorry for the long winded response and I would be happy to try and answer any regarding these new interpretations. 
 

One more thing… if these interpretations are correct, and I certainly believe they are, this also tells us that the clay AND the 10 toes were present BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS!!!!!!!!

I am sure you might understand these implications. Thanks , Charlie 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

There is only 4 kingdoms not 5.

We know from Daniel 10 that these kingdoms have evil angel overlords.  The prince of Persia spawned the earthly kingdom of Persia, and likewise the prince of Greece.  Both of these princes are referenced in Daniel 10.  By extension, it's reasonable to assume that Rome had its prince too.

It might be worth considering that the fourth prince, whose first manifestation was Rome, brought us the feed of iron and clay after his release from the abyss.  Four evil angel princes yielding five earthly kingdoms.