What About The Palestinians ?

[debrakay]

20 hours ago, other one said:

Bukhari's hadith is supposed to be a listing of the things that he heard Mohammad either say or do.

"supposed to" those are the key words.  Joseph Smith was supposed to have had special glasses to read the hieroglyphics of the Moroni tribe but there is not one single iota of physical evidence this is truth.  Powerful, evil men say whatever they want and if you go against them, they kill you.

[debrakay]

22 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I believe they are Arabs. Abraham, had two concubines, and both had son's

Yes, I recently reread that.  Hagar was an Egyptian therefore an Arabian.  The Bible doesn't state what race Keturah is of but the names of her sons does tell a story and some are Arabian names while others are associates with the Midianites who were Arabian.  When you look up the word "Midian" the description is "brawling, contention, strife, discord" and then you remember what God said about Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants.  For me the Islamic religion is all about God's judgement of those with Ishmael's blood and all are of Arabian lineage.  They still have a choice just like us Gentiles (heathens and pagans) but they choose to remain in that Muslim trap.

[Anne2]

47 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Yes, I recently reread that.  Hagar was an Egyptian therefore an Arabian.  The Bible doesn't state what race Keturah is of but the names of her sons does tell a story and some are Arabian names while others are associates with the Midianites who were Arabian.  When you look up the word "Midian" the description is "brawling, contention, strife, discord" and then you remember what God said about Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants.  For me the Islamic religion is all about God's judgement of those with Ishmael's blood and all are of Arabian lineage.  They still have a choice just like us Gentiles (heathens and pagans) but they choose to remain in that Muslim trap.

I have read their bible says it was Ishmeal, Who was sacrificed. so, it is sibling rivalry for the birthright of the Abrahamic covenant.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
 

Edited February 25, 2024 by Anne2

[other one]

1 hour ago, debrakay said:

"supposed to" those are the key words.  Joseph Smith was supposed to have had special glasses to read the hieroglyphics of the Moroni tribe but there is not one single iota of physical evidence this is truth.  Powerful, evil men say whatever they want and if you go against them, they kill you.

Supposed to be or not, that is what the Islamic student believes.  So it really doesn't matter if Mohammad said it or not (I tend to think he did).  I'm not standing up for Islam, just pointing out that you can't trust anyone who follows what is written that Mohammad said or did.  And I might add though that they need Jesus just as we do, and it is said they are finding him in large numbers.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, debrakay said:

Thank you for those scriptures Anne.  We all know he will continue dividing the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the tares and he will do it in whatever way he has too.  Whenever someone tries to tell me Jesus was all about peace, I remind them of the names he called his pious, rich, religious, killers and what he did when the temple was filled with thieves and money changers.  When he does come back that final time, he won't be a whimpy, quiet, peaceful, king and every knee will bow whether they want to or not.

Shalom, debrakay.

This is a common error; so, please don't take this personally: The tares among the wheat parable is about GOD'S KINGDOM during the time when Yeeshuwa` shall reign from Jerusalem, first for a thousand years in this age, and then eternally in the age to come! During that first 1,000 years of His Kingdom, the Messiah will find that there will be children of the wicked one among the children of the Kingdom. These will be removed at the Great White Throne Judgment, and the "wheat" will be taken into God's eternal kingdom - "the barn" - afterward.

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (Greek: ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν = Hee basileia toon ouranoon [ablative case]= "the Kingdom from-the skies") is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man;
38 The field is (=) the world;
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked [one];
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil;
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (Greek: συντέλεια τοῦ αἰῶνός = sunteleia tou aioonos = "tail-end of-the age");
and the reapers are (=) the angels.

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Note that Yeeshuwa` gave us all the keys to this parable. All we need do is make the substitutions:

"The kingdom of heaven (Greek: ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν = Hee basileia toon ouranoon [ablative case]= "the Kingdom from-the skies") is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked [one] among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked [one] also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked [one]?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked [one], ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (Greek: συντέλεια τοῦ αἰῶνός = sunteleia tou aioonos = "tail-end of-the age"): and in the time of the end of the world (Greek: συντέλεια τοῦ αἰῶνός = sunteleia tou aioonos = "tail-end of-the age") I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked [one], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."' "

Then, just add the rest of His explanation:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT of his (the Messiah's) kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Also, it's important to understand that the Kingdom of the Messiah (the Christ) doesn't BEGIN until He has returned!

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The rest of this passage (part of the Olivet Discourse) is about the WAR TRIBUNAL He will hold after the battle that terminates beneath Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon") on the plain of עֵמֶק יִזְרְעֶאל or `Eemeq-Yizr`e'l (the Valley of Jezreel). In this war tribunal, it will be the NATIONS that are judged, not the individuals! The individuals are not judged independently until the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the first 1,000 years.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Um, how are you different? You already plainly said you supported genocide.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

I just gave you examples of entire Muslims communities and nations who saved Jews during the holocaust, which directly refutes your assertation, and you said "Pffft". Just own up to the fact that you just hate them and want them dead. Your rhetoric is no different to me then that from a klansman or a nazi. You can be as offended as you like by the comparison, but I fail to see much of a difference. Go ahead, ban me or censor me for saying it. I believe it and I stand by it.

Obviously it's part of the Tanakh and I believe it. I find this kind of questioning obnoxious. I've been asked about this before and I've addressed it. Unless you have a new and better argument then JohnD I will remain unconvinced.

This forum has been very educational for me in learning the evangelical Christian mindset. They hate politicians, public figures and institutions that don't embrace what they believe are biblical values... however those values seldom are applied to themselves. They believe in Jesus, they just don't care to listen to anything he actually said whenever it's inconvenient to do so. If you point out that their own bible or the Tanakh contradicts a belief, behaviour or action they will acknowledge it says so but then list endless caveats that always come around to not having to do what it says. They believe in the Torah, but don't believe any of it applies to themselves, only to others (liberals, LGBT, etc...)

I know for a fact that if I responded with pictures of klansmen next to lynched black people and nazi's next to their children, or numerous manifestos and incidents of Christian terrorism it wouldn't be approved despite the direct comparison.

Luke 6:27-33

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

So Jesus, whom you all claim is G-d said this. Yet all I see is:

Quote

 

Shalom, Gabriel80.

I would suggest that AT BEST, the Gaza Strip should become BY FORCE a state of Israel. It can be a mostly Muslim population, but it must remain the territory of Israel.  Hamas should be disbanded or destroyed, whichever Hamas would prefer. If they can't live peacably, then then can't live freely! And, if they can't live in prison, then they must die a suicidal death from their stubbornness. Their population, particularly the children, must be re-educated to understand that they CAN LIVE TOGETHER WITH JEWS PEACEABLY! The terrorist organization called "Hamas" must be NO MORE! It's that simple.

And, if the Palestinian Authority and the terrorist organization called the "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" doesn't like it, THEY'LL BE NEXT! Distantly, they are family through Avraham. However, they must realize that, too!

You said, "Palestinian non-combatants should be spared to the extent that is possible." And, you're right; however, they've been doing that, limiting civilian deaths when Hamas is doing everything in its power to HIDE BEHIND the civilians, ESPECIALLY the women and children!

 

Every Jewish person I've shown this thread to has been horrified. It's not because we like Islam or terrorism, it's because we know what it's like to be on the receiving end of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Shalom, and I DO MEAN "SHALOM!" to you, Slibhin!

For my part, I did NOT mean genocide! I'm saying that Israel needs to FINISH THE JOB! Their mission is like a surgeon removing a cancer in someone's body! Sure, they're going to unavoidably extract good flesh in the process, but THE CANCER MUST BE REMOVED TO SAVE THE PATIENT!

You and your compatriots need to start thinking like Moses' successor, Y'howshuwa` (Joshua)! If Israel is to experience lasting peace, it must first deal with the uncooperative (stubborn) Islamic terrorists around Israel, including Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, etc., ALL that call for Israel's eradication!

I would like nothing better than to see them come PEACEFULLY to the table to work WITH Israel on a PEACEFUL solution! BUT, they're NOT WILLING to even CONSIDER it!

So be it! They've made their choice! It's unfortunate that they use their own families and friends as human shields, but THEY are to blame for their deaths! They won't stand up like men and fight like men! Instead, they act like the COWARDS they are and hide behind their women's skirts! They're PATHETIC!

So, please! Don't think I WANT their demise! I want them to start acting SENSIBLY! I would like nothing better than to see them come to ADONAY humbly and find ADONAY'S forgiveness and acceptance! But, if they won't, then they will die in their sins. AND, THAT IS VERY SAD!

4 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I acknowledge that some people here have been much more measured and this mindset is not representative of all Christians or everyone on the forum, but it isn't exactly uncommon either. It's amazing to me that people think I'm the one who is "unsaved" because I don't embrace this incredible hatred, rage and hypocrisy.

It's not hatred; it's concern for the lives of the Israelis and indignation against the injustice that is DAILY demonstrated by THEIR hatred! Netanyahu PROMISED them that he would do whatever he could to WIPE OUT HAMAS! If those who call themselves "Palestinians" (coming from "Philistines," btw), will abandon Hamas, then they MAY escape the fate of Hamas! The IDF would do their best to protect them, and help them, if they can, BUT destruction of Hamas is imperative! And, civilian casualties are inevitable! It IS "war," after all!

4 hours ago, Slibhin said:

We (Jews) believe in mercy and redemption, and it is not conditional on being born in the correct country or being of the correct religion.

Sorry, but you guys don't even believe your own book, why should we?

We believe in ADONAY G-D who is the GIVER of life and the One who TAKES IT AWAY! If He can give it once, He can GIVE LIFE to an individual again! We call that RESURRECTION POWER! And, He has given that power to His Messiah, the "Son of God" (2 Samuel 7:14), who is coming back to reign in Israel! He will resurrect those who are His, and He won't allow death to have a permanent hold on ANYONE who died unjustly! THAT'S the source of our faith! We know who gives ETERNAL LIFE!

[other one]

10 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Um, how are you different? You already plainly said you supported genocide.

It is genocide to  want to kill an army that is killing your people??? You just can't separate Hamas from all Palestinians, can you. The genocide is in your mind, not mine.

[FJK]

10 hours ago, Slibhin said:

We (Jews) believe in mercy and redemption, and it is not conditional on being born in the correct country or being of the correct religion.

That's why you -the Jews- have the history you do, why all those horrifying things that have happened to you over the centuries have happened to you.

The worst enemies the Jews have are the Jews themselves, without them all the others would have fallen by the wayside.

But we are now entering a period where the only allies the Jews will have to rescue them from the next (and I think soon to come) Holocaust will be themselves and a small remnant of Christianity from a few small parts of Europe. There will be no refuge in any part of the world as there is now as those places they consider friendly now will become hostile and drive you out.

But s for believing your own books, do not your own books tell you that when your enemies come to kill you you should arise quickly and kill them first?

Hope your Sabbath went well and hoping for the Lord to smile on you as you begin the new week.

[FJK]

3 hours ago, Slibhin said:

As I stated above, Jewish law based on the Torah forbids killing innocent people, women and children especially.

But how does the Torah tell you to do this, to determine who are innocent and who are not?

3 hours ago, Slibhin said:

We don't have the same luxury you do of ignoring that which is inconvenient or makes life harder.

But you have said in the past that the sacrifices are no longer considered important and don't apply anymore.  Did you quit believing it because you found it inconvenient or that it makes life harder?

I appreciate your posts. Slibhin, you always give me something to consider (about life, the universe and everything as well as religion).  This helps me become a better person and remove barriers that stand in the way of having a closer relationship with God.  I hope I can do the same with my posts to you as well.

But a simple and mostly unrelated question (the result of my limited study of Judaism today):  Since you have chosen to be an Orthodox Jew, do you study Torah to become better at being a Jew or to develop a closer personal relationship with God?  (And I know this is not an easy question to answer, especially for a young person)

May the Lord guide you thinking and keep you safe.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

 

3 hours ago, FJK said:

But how does the Torah tell you to do this, to determine who are innocent and who are not?

But you have said in the past that the sacrifices are no longer considered important and don't apply anymore.  Did you quit believing it because you found it inconvenient or that it makes life harder?

I appreciate your posts. Slibhin, you always give me something to consider (about life, the universe and everything as well as religion).  This helps me become a better person and remove barriers that stand in the way of having a closer relationship with God.  I hope I can do the same with my posts to you as well.

But a simple and mostly unrelated question (the result of my limited study of Judaism today): 

 

3 hours ago, FJK said:

Since you have chosen to be an Orthodox Jew, do you study Torah to become better at being a Jew or to develop a closer personal relationship with God?  (And I know this is not an easy question to answer, especially for a young person)

May the Lord guide you thinking and keep you safe.

 

The study of the Torah does not make anyone an Orthodox Jew. 

There are eligibility criteria for someone to qualify as a Jew. And then there are criteria to qualify for an Orthodox Jew. 

And what kind of question is this to study the Torah as an Orthodox Jew to be a better person and have a closer personal relationship with God? 

This seems to be a very personal question soliciting something from a specific person. "do you study the Torah for this or that."

Can you use a different approache and different words so anyone who reads the post can be eligible to reply to these questions. 

As it is, it seems that you are only seeking a reply from a specific person.  

Another kind of question would be.  Why we study the Torah in general and why anyone would like to study the Torah? I study the Torah as a believer in Jesus Christ for many reasons. Also to be educated about the context in those books. Others they study the Torah because they are their religious sacred books. AMEN.