What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, BibleStudent100 said:

FreeGrace said:

If you can find ANY command in any of the epistles for believers to fulfill the GC you would have a point.  But there simply isn't any such commands.

Matthew 28: 19, 20:  "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

As the OP clearly notes, this is the GC.  And was given ONLY to "the eleven".  In fact, there are only 3 mentions of the GC being given:  matt 28:19,20, Luke 16:14 and Acts 1.

And in ALL 3, Jesus was speaking to "the eleven".  No one else.

My challenge was to find ANY reference to the GC in the epistles in terms of a command.  There aren't any.

If the GC is a command generally to all believers, why isn't there a clear verse that says so?

The GC was given to "the eleven" for the purpose of starting and building "the church".  In fact, "the eleven" did evangelize ALL the known world in the 1st Century.

Since then, the GC is fulfilled by those with the communication gifts, for the purpose of building the church and building up the Body.  Eph 4:11,12

[farouk]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:03 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The great commission is for ALL believers. There are many things said in the Bible that may have originally been said to only a few people but were clearly meant for all. Jesus told Nicodemus alone about being "Born Again" yet it's widely quoted and believed by millions today. Was the term Born Again only for Nicodemus? There are other examples, but I think you understand my point. Besides, if the great commission wasn't for everyone, then it would be a great contradiction that millions who have brought glory to God were disobedient. 

@TrueFollowerOfChrist While those who serve should be sanctified vessels, the Great Commission is not for a special class of ppl, indeed not, like you say.

[TheBlade]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

And here I thought you were going so well with your comment. So, I do disagree with you on that last point. You see I was brought up in the Apostolic Denomination, (4th generation) which came out of the Welsh Revival. 

My grandfather and Uncle were recognized Apostles and sent to Australia to bring the revelation of the 5 fold ministries (back in 1930`s). They both became Leaders of the denomination in Australia and New Zealand and travelled preaching, worldwide also.

My understanding and experience of Apostles is that they have a deep revelation of the Lord and manifest His character in a marked way. They often exhibit the 5 fold ministries in their own life.

And the Prophet works closely with them giving a deeper, far reaching word (for the whole body) than just someone prophesying for a local assembly.

I remember the early days when my mother and other ladies would take the Prophets words down in short hand and then it would get typed up. I still have many of those early prophecies. If you would like an example I can put one on for you here.

When the Prophet (or Prophets) had finished the Apostle would give an exposition of it to encourage the people. 

 

Blessed me with this.. thank you Father.. thanks Sis. 

[TheBlade]

On 5/17/2024 at 5:30 AM, FreeGrace said:

I hope everyone realizes that I'm NOT advocating that believers keep their mouths shut.  Of course every believer is to live a life so worthy that others will naturally ASK them the "reason for the hope (confidence) they have" (1 Pet 3:15).

Evangelism among the 'pew sitters" most naturally flows from their life.  Or should.  

But the idea that the GC means "every disciple make a disciple" only leads to frustration and guilt.

"Even a [callous, arrogant] fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips he is regarded as sensible (prudent, discreet) and a man of understanding."

Hmm maybe there is something to what your talking about :)

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@TrueFollowerOfChrist While those who serve should be sanctified vessels, the Great Commission is not for a special class of ppl, indeed not, like you say.

Yet, that is exactly who Jesus commissioned for the GC;  "the eleven".  

If either of you think the GC is for every believer, why doesn't any epistle contain the commandment for the congregation?  That would confirm your belief.

[FreeGrace]

30 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

"Even a [callous, arrogant] fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips he is regarded as sensible (prudent, discreet) and a man of understanding."

Hmm maybe there is something to what your talking about :)

I'm not at all sure what your point is here.  I began that post with

FreeGrace said:

I hope everyone realizes that I'm NOT advocating that believers keep their mouths shut.  Of course every believer is to live a life so worthy that others will naturally ASK them the "reason for the hope (confidence) they have" (1 Pet 3:15).

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The extent of the spiritual gifts is up for debate.  That's not what the OP is about.  

The traditional view is that the GC is for EVERY believer, which is simply not true.

Jesus commissioned His trained 11 to spread the gospel, to make disciples and to TEACH them everything He had taught them.

iow, the GC was to evangelize the known world of that time.  And by the 2nd Century, "the eleven" had done just that.  Of course, each generation needs to be evangelized, so God gives specific spiritual gifts for that purpose.

The closest evidence for who and what the GC is for in the NT is found in Eph 4:11,12

11 - So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,

12 - to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Your argument has merit. In the cases of Christ instructing concerning evangelizing the world, He did only address the eleven. But you have not dealt with some other things.

The first one is that you have created a Formal "GC" and then applied it to a "blanket" gospel. That is you used a term not found in scripture, but which, when examined, turns out to be a multitude of things. A short inspection of the New Testament will show that "gospel" is attached to a number of things. For instance;
1. The gospel to the lost tribes
2. The gospel to the poor
Both these are before His death.

Then after His death the gospel on Pentecost did not contain "believe" as the "devout men of Israel" were expected to know Messiah. So "repent" is used. That is, turn from your murderous animosity to that One Whom the prophets foretold. To the Gentiles is an unknown Savior introduced in Whom we must "believe" and confess with the mouth.

Then scripture makes a big difference between the gospel of the "Kingdom" and the gospel of "Grace". In the teaching of grace, FAITH is always attached. To the gospel of the Kingdom, WORKS are always attached.

Then, scripture warns the Galatians of "another gospel" in the matter of sanctification, implying that the good news that men might not only be saved from the Lake of Fire, but also saved from a dreadfully fallen nature, is a gospel.

Then Paul mentions David and connects it to "my gospel" which seems to be the good news of the recovery of Israel "AFTER" the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16).

Then, in Athens Paul teaches the unknown "Creator" which seems to tie with the everlasting gospel that an angel is commissioned to to preach from mid-heaven.

And all this interspersed with the "gospel of Christ", the "gospel of God", the "gospel of peace", not to mention a "gospel preached to Abraham" which seemed to do more with the "seed" of Abraham IN WHICH all the families of earth will be blessed.

Which one is the Great Commission? I know that, for instance, Matthew contains many. There, the Kingdom is at the fore, while making disciples and teaching to obey are included. But not so in Mark. There, the Christian can testify by surviving a snakebite. In some it is "preach to all men". In another it is preach to "all creation".

If I was asked what I must preach "in season and out of season" it is Christ, Son of God, by death a Substitute for men headed for perdition. But once I have the convert the gospel changes to the Kingdom and, as Paul said, "the unsearchable riches of Christ".

Maybe you can define the Great Commission.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for sharing your view. I commend the individual saints who served the Lord within the structure they believed was correct. Our doctrine however motivates our behavior, so it is in our, and ultimately God's interests, to study the Word. Nothing is in the Bible by accident. In John Chapter 4 the Lord acknowledge the Samaritan "mountain" (Gerezim), and he equally admitted the Jews mountain of worship (Moriah). But he said that "the hours is coming - and now is" that God wants worship in the human spirit. The Samaritans had God's Word in the Pentateuch, and Israel had God's Word in the Torah.

If you quizzed one or the other, you would hear a good coherent argument for the mountains of worship, but all their efforts would not bring God His deserved worship. Moses received a "pattern" on the mountain on how he was to structure God's first House, and David received instructions on how Solomon was built the second House of God. We have detailed instructions on how to build the Church. And we have the added admonition to build according to the wise "masterbuilder" (1st Cor.3). The Apostles formed that crucial substructure. We had better be sure about whether we we build on sand or rock, or whether the foundations are Gold, silver and precious stones, or whether we build with hay and stubble.

With your above average knowledge of the Bible, would you say that your grandfather and uncle would pass the threefold test for an Apostles? When the true Apostles, trained by Christ Himself, sought eligible candidates, they laid down two stipulations:
1. the candidate had to have walked with the Lord while he was on earth
2. the candidate had to have seen the resurrected Lord bodily (Act.1:21-22)

Paul, who met the Lord personally, and was trained personally by Him, added a third stipulation;
3. The Apostle's sign is multiple miraculous works (2nd Cor.12:12).

The Church in Ephesus, in Revelation 2:2, no doubt applied these tests. Who can stand before the Bible? This view of mine, in no way detracts from a lifetime of diligent service by a pious saint. Your grandfather and uncle are not called into question for their dedication, diligence and loyalty to the Lord. But if a was a young Christian at Ephesus, and I took the courage to test such formidable men, what would the results of the test be?

Hi Ad Hoc,

Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2; 36)

The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and are for the building up of the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries are of Christ`s Headship and certainly needed till we come to full maturity as a Body in Christ. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

There were many Apostles in the early Body of Christ -

APOSTLES GIVEN AFTER CHRIST`S ASCENSION.

Apostle Paul - 

`Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,...` (2 Cor. 1; 1)

Apostle Silvanus - 

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Timothy - 

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Andronicus - 

`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle Junia - 

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)

`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)

Apostle Epaphroditus -  ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)

`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)

Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)

`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1: 5)

[farouk]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yet, that is exactly who Jesus commissioned for the GC;  "the eleven".  

If either of you think the GC is for every believer, why doesn't any epistle contain the commandment for the congregation?  That would confirm your belief.

The gospel is the rule of the believers life; the light of testimony needs to shine forth; there is plenty of Scripture for it.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument has merit. In the cases of Christ instructing concerning evangelizing the world, He did only address the eleven.

Thank you.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But you have not dealt with some other things.

Probably because they aren't directly relevant to the GC.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The first one is that you have created a Formal "GC" and then applied it to a "blanket" gospel. That is you used a term not found in scripture, but which, when examined, turns out to be a multitude of things. A short inspection of the New Testament will show that "gospel" is attached to a number of things. For instance;
1. The gospel to the lost tribes
2. The gospel to the poor
Both these are before His death.

Not clear what you mean by a "term not found in Scripture", and then talked about "gospel".  

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then after His death the gospel on Pentecost did not contain "believe" as the "devout men of Israel" were expected to know Messiah. So "repent" is used. That is, turn from your murderous animosity to that One Whom the prophets foretold. To the Gentiles is an unknown Savior introduced in Whom we must "believe" and confess with the mouth.

Yes, Acts 2:38 has been poorly understood for centuries.  Peter told the crowd that the One they turned over to the Romans IS their Messiah.  "repent" literally means to change the mind, which they had to do.  They all understood Jesus' claim, but hadn't believed that He was who He said He was.  So Peter is directly telling them to change their minds.  And baptism there was the outward demonstration of an inward change.

Nobody gets saved through water baptism.  The entire Egyptian army was immersed (baptized) in the Red Sea and they all died.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then scripture makes a big difference between the gospel of the "Kingdom" and the gospel of "Grace".

I would appreciate an explanation of the difference.  

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In the teaching of grace, FAITH is always attached. To the gospel of the Kingdom, WORKS are always attached.

Could you give some Scriptural examples of this difference?

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then, scripture warns the Galatians of "another gospel" in the matter of sanctification, implying that the good news that men might not only be saved from the Lake of Fire, but also saved from a dreadfully fallen nature, is a gospel.

No, in Galatians Paul was warning of a fake gospel that was works salvation, which doesn't save.  The Galatians were turning back to animal sacrifice.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then Paul mentions David and connects it to "my gospel" which seems to be the good news of the recovery of Israel "AFTER" the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16).

Is this a gospel that saves one from the LOF?

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then, in Athens Paul teaches the unknown "Creator" which seems to tie with the everlasting gospel that an angel is commissioned to to preach from mid-heaven.

And all this interspersed with the "gospel of Christ", the "gospel of God", the "gospel of peace", not to mention a "gospel preached to Abraham" which seemed to do more with the "seed" of Abraham IN WHICH all the families of earth will be blessed.

The English word "gospel" in the Greek means "good news".  There's lots of good news in the Bible.  The good news of how to earn reward in eternity and be blessed in time, the good news of how to be delivered, rescued saved from the LOF, etc.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Which one is the Great Commission? I know that, for instance, Matthew contains many.

Many what?  There is only 1 GC, found at the end of Matthew.  28:19,20.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There, the Kingdom is at the fore, while making disciples and teaching to obey are included. But not so in Mark. There, the Christian can testify by surviving a snakebite.

Actually, Mark 16:9-20 was not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts, and was added later.  I cited 16:14 only to show the GC was given to "the eleven".  All that stuff about snakebites is clearly not part of inspired Scripture.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In some it is "preach to all men". In another it is preach to "all creation".

No difference.  Or do you think the Bible tells us to evangelize rocks, trees, fish, etc?

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If I was asked what I must preach "in season and out of season" it is Christ, Son of God, by death a Substitute for men headed for perdition. But once I have the convert the gospel changes to the Kingdom and, as Paul said, "the unsearchable riches of Christ".

Maybe you can define the Great Commission.

I think you've covered it well above.  I'm still not convinced that there is a difference between gospel of kingdom vs gospel of grace.  

God's entire plan for all of mankind is based on grace.  Unfortunately, many are confused and think that salvation was by works or law keeping in the OT.  Gal 3 refutes that notion.  The Law was given to prove to man that he can't be perfect and needs saving from the LOF.  The Law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:26).  And Paul preached exclusively from the "Scriptures", meaning the OT, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.  And Paul's message was clearly one of grace.

It was Paul who wrote Eph 2:8.  "we are saved by grace through faith".  That is the eternal message from Adam forward.