What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, farouk said:

  FreeGrace said:

Yet, that is exactly who Jesus commissioned for the GC;  "the eleven".  

If either of you think the GC is for every believer, why doesn't any epistle contain the commandment for the congregation?  That would confirm your belief.

The gospel is the rule of the believers life; the light of testimony needs to shine forth; there is plenty of Scripture for it.

This doesn't address my question.  There are NO commands to any of the churches regarding the GC.  

The closest Scripture to the GC is in Eph 4:11,12.

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,

12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

v.11 are the communication gifts, for preaching and explaining the gospel so that people will hear, understand and believe it.  That is how they become disciples.

v.12 is the purpose of teaching the converts (disciples).  For the building up of the Body of Christ through "works of service".

[luigi]

There is this one passage in John, where Jesus says that they who believe in Him will do the miracles that Christ did, and even greater miracles (John 14:12). In my opinion, that level of belief in Christ is what represents a true disciple of Christ.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Neighbor]

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.  To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.  Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.  To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." - Paul the apostle out of time.

[warrior12]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:42 AM, FreeGrace said:

Eph 4:11 - So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

 

On 5/16/2024 at 10:42 AM, FreeGrace said:

v.12 presents the PURPOSE of these spiritual gifts:  to prepare (equip) believers in a local assembly for "works of service", which will result in "the body of Christ being built up".

vs 12 as you interpreted to be for "believerrs in a local assembly for works of service is your interpretation. Scripture did not say this.

When you become a believer and see what grace has done for you, it is an inate thing to tell the world and not keep it inside.  Some has even been burnt to the stake and has their live forfieted for speading the gospel. 

Take for example , William Tyndale, the man who gave his whole life and was killed for transalating the bible into english.

Your post is not edifying to the body IMO.  It is a topic that you are free to discuss, but I see no use in it's inspection.

Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, luigi said:

There is this one passage in John, where Jesus says that they who believe in Him will do the miracles that Christ did, and even greater miracles (John 14:12). In my opinion, that level of belief in Christ is what represents a true disciple of Christ.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Are you doing miracles?  Are any of the believers you fellowship with doing miracles?

Like Jesus did.  Curing diseases, raising the dead.  Things like that.

We know that the criteria for apostleship was:

2 Cor 12:12 - I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

  FreeGrace said:

v.12 presents the PURPOSE of these spiritual gifts:  to prepare (equip) believers in a local assembly for "works of service", which will result in "the body of Christ being built up".

vs 12 as you interpreted to be for "believerrs in a local assembly for works of service is your interpretation. Scripture did not say this.

Then what does Scripture say?  Specifically v.12.

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

When you become a believer and see what grace has done for you, it is an inate thing to tell the world and not keep it inside.

I've not said otherwise.  In fact, I gave the verses that ARE commands for all believers.

Col 4:6 - Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect

iow, it is the believer's lifestyle that begins spiritual conversations, or should.

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

  Some has even been burnt to the stake and has their live forfieted for speading the gospel.

And much worse.  Heb 11:37 - They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword.

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Your post is not edifying to the body IMO.  It is a topic that you are free to discuss, but I see no use in it's inspection.

How sad.  Since when is truth "not edifying to the body"??  Of course it's edifying.  Truth is ALWAYS edifying to the body.  

The problem is that tradition teaches that the GC is for EVERY believer.  All that creates is guilt for all those who don't have the communication gifts if they don't 'stand on street corners'.

It gets worse when pastors/etc teach that the GC means "every disciple make a disciple", or words to that effect.  All that does is create guilt for those who don't have the communication gifts to do that.  

There is NO biblical command for every believer to make disciples.  That command was given by our Lord to "the eleven".  The purpose was to establish churches "in all the world", which "the eleven did" in the first century.

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

That's a song.  That is not Scripture.  I don't take marching orders from songs.  I do from Scripture.

Evangelicalism desperately needs to get back to TRUTH and leave TRADITIONS in the dust.  

Eph 4:11,12 parallels the GC of Matt 28:19,20.  And that is the ONLY PLACE in the NT that relates to the GC.  v.11 has the spiritual gifts that are necessary for "making disciples" and v.12 is the purpose of these spiritual gifts beyond making disciples.

It seems most believers think the GC is simply witnessing to others in all kinds of places.  

And there is no thought of Matt 28:20, which is about "teaching them everything I (Jesus) have commanded YOU (the eleven)".  

If the GC were for EVERY believer, as tradition claims, then every epistle should have mention of it. 

Yet, there are NO epistles that have any mention of the GC.

[luigi]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Are you doing miracles?  Are any of the believers you fellowship with doing miracles?

Like Jesus did.  Curing diseases, raising the dead.  Things like that.

We know that the criteria for apostleship was:

2 Cor 12:12 - I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

I don't think anyone is doing miracles as Jesus said would follow all who believe in Him. I therefore reason that we do not believe in Christs Way as we should, otherwise we would be doing these miracles and greater miracles. The reason we do not believe in Christs Way as we should, is because today we are all currently double minded, serving both God and Mammon. As this double minded status cannot stand; we will then eventually either believe in Christ as we should, and therefore then become true disciples of Christ with following miracles; or we will choose the love for this world that we currently all have, over continuing to believe in Christs Way. This is the Big Split described in the Olivet discourse, where family members will be turning in family members to their deaths.

[WilliamL]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

1st Corinthians 14:3 defines a prophet, and one can see that a prophet/ess is a very normal duty for just about anybody.

 

On 5/20/2024 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

Likewise in Ephesians 2:19-21, the Household of God is built on the foundation of prophets and APOSTLES.

 

On 5/20/2024 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

In summary, I propose that all gifts are still available except the office of Apostle, seeing as they are a foundation and the Master builder, Christ, refuses double, treble and/or multiple foundations.

Good summary of the subject, but self contradictory when talking about foundation building. Marilyn answers this by pointing out that individual assemblies are still being founded.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2; 36)

The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and are for the building up of the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries are of Christ`s Headship and certainly needed till we come to full maturity as a Body in Christ. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

There were many Apostles in the early Body of Christ -

APOSTLES GIVEN AFTER CHRIST`S ASCENSION.

Apostle Paul - 

`Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,...` (2 Cor. 1; 1)

Apostle Silvanus - 

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Timothy - 

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Andronicus - 

`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle Junia - 

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)

`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)

Apostle Epaphroditus -  ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)

`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)

Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)

`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1: 5)

Your argument is good, but you did not deal with my arguments. Here they are in summary.

The Greek for Apostle means "sent one".  If this is what you mean, i agree and you don't have to read further. But if you agree that there was a man "sent" and there was a man with the authority, in the age of grace, to hand another saint over for the destruction of the flesh, you have not made the distinction between them that scripture does.

If you say there is no distinction, you have to explain why the eleven came up with their stated qualifications in Acts 1.

If you still say that there is no distinction then you have to explain why Paul said (i) there were "signs" of an Apostle, and (ii) why he only mentioned Apostles.

If you still disagree, then you must explain why God continuously lays foundations.

If you are still not in agreement, you have to explain why the Holy Spirit said "Apostles FIRST". Your denomination founded, or recovered the Apostleship in and around 1863 - certainly not the FIRST in the Assembly.

I propose that all you have mentioned fall under the standard meaning of "sent one", not one who occupies the Office of Apostle.

[FreeGrace]

28 minutes ago, luigi said:

I don't think anyone is doing miracles as Jesus said would follow all who believe in Him. I therefore reason that we do not believe in Christs Way as we should, otherwise we would be doing these miracles and greater miracles.

So, that would include yourself.  Obviously no one is perfect.  Since you acknowledge that you don't think anyone is doing what Jesus did, that should be a clue as to whom Jesus was actually referring to.  The apostles of Jesus' day.  They DID do what Jesus did.  So Jesus' comments were specifically about "the eleven".

28 minutes ago, luigi said:

The reason we do not believe in Christs Way as we should, is because today we are all currently double minded, serving both God and Mammon. As this double minded status cannot stand; we will then eventually either believe in Christ as we should, and therefore then become true disciples of Christ with following miracles; or we will choose the love for this world that we currently all have, over continuing to believe in Christs Way.

I think, rather, that you missed to whom  Jesus was referring.  I do agree that there are major problems within evangelicalism today.  In fact, before the Tribulation, the Bible prophesies of "rebellion".  The Greek word in 2 Thess 2:3 is:  apostasia: defection, revolt.  Basically, apostasy.  It seems the world is on the threshold of the Great Tribulation.  

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."  2 Thess 2:3

It seems to me evangelicalism has drifted to tradition rather than truth in many subjects.

28 minutes ago, luigi said:

This is the Big Split described in the Olivet discourse, where family members will be turning in family members to their deaths.

Yes, that is what Revelation says.  Seems we are nearly there already.