Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

[AdHoc]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:24 AM, Retrobyter said:

This is a bit of a problem because, in Matthew 13, the parable of the Leaven is about the KINGDOM! Here, leaven is NOT a "type of sin!"

Here's the parable:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." 

He was not talking about the KINGDOM being a "type of sin!" That would be ridiculous and slanderous!

He was talking about the Kingdom's INFLUENCE during His reign and while He was building the Worldwide Empire for His Father. As His Kingdom was "kneeded" into the world it PERMEATED the world and affected all! THIS is to what He was referring! 

Why a "woman?" This is because, in Israel, the women usually baked the bread (lechem).

Why "three measures of meal?" This is because of the difference in units of dry measure between the Hebrews and the Greeks. The Hebrews used an "ephah" to measure grain. The Greeks used (as was written here) a "saton" (a neuter word, the plural of which is "sata"), which was only about a third of an "ephah." The author is saying that Yeeshuwa` used the Hebrew (or Aramaic) "ephah" as His measurement, but to translate this, they changed it to "sata tria" in Greek, translated into English as "three measures."

Now, the "ephah" is about a BUSHEL of wheat dough! That's a WHOLE LOT OF DOUGH! However, even a small amount of yeast (a leavening agent) can eventually permeate the whole thing! It just TAKES TIME! THIS is what Yeeshuwa` was talking about here: 

The influence of the Kingdom will start out small, only affecting the nations close to its borders, but as it grows and assimilates other nations (making them vassal states), that influence will grow and permeate the world!

We are commanded, in 2nd Peter 1:20, not to interpret scripture privately. That command safeguards the scriptures from men's imaginations. It basically leaves only two avenues of interpretation. We can (1) interpret obscure scriptures with scripture itself, or (2) we can use nature, seeing as nature shows the things of God. And indeed, here is a prime example. But first, your argueent must be examined.
(1) The verses does not say that the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven. It says that the Kingdom is three portions of meal which is leavened by an intruding woman. If you take the leaven as the Kingdom you will end up with your conclusion that the kingdom is sin. But if you take it as meal, then the Kingdom remains meal but is influenced by the leaven. Is this not what we have today? The Church influenced and modified by leavenous teaching?

(2) Jesus is not building a worldwide Empire. According to Daniel 2, the world is fully occupied by a Gentile Empire. Without warning, suddenly, from no apparent source, a little stone pulverizes this Gentile Empire and His Kingdom fills the earth in the ABSENCE of any opposing force.

(3) The Parables depict the Kingdom BEFORE it is manifest. It is "the MYSTERIES" of the Kingdom which change to MANIFESTATION at the END OF THIS AGE The Kingdom is shown in THIS AGE when
1. It fails to bring forth the right amount of fruit (Sower)
2. It is forced to grow together with COUNTERFEIT wheat
3. It changes from a small tree with piquant fruit (MUSTARD) to a big tree identical to Nebuchadnezzar's Kingdom
4. Unleavened meal is leavened. 

Leaven must be explained by scripture and nature:
1. There is not a single mention of leaven that is positive in the whole Bible. It is either sin or false doctrine.
2. In nature, its job is to make the meal something it isn't, and it makes the meal more palatable.

I propose that the four parables given from the boat in Matthew 13 showed the condition of God's people during this age and how they fare until the Lord sends His angels for a harvest. If we look around us we can see the effects of corruption in the Church. If we consider some of tings we do thy are not mentioned not required by God. If we look at the New Testament we find a row of problems - ending with the seven Churches of Revelation 2 & 3. 2nd Thessalonians 2 predicts a"falling away" at the end of the age. And the Lord Who walks among His seven Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 is an unhappy Lord.

But I think that we agree on my main point. There is no evidence of dead men going to heaven.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

We are commanded, in 2nd Peter 1:20, not to interpret scripture privately. That command safeguards the scriptures from men's imaginations. It basically leaves only two avenues of interpretation. We can (1) interpret obscure scriptures with scripture itself, or (2) we can use nature, seeing as nature shows the things of God. And indeed, here is a prime example. But first, your argueent must be examined.
(1) The verses does not say that the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven. It says that the Kingdom is three portions of meal which is leavened by an intruding woman. If you take the leaven as the Kingdom you will end up with your conclusion that the kingdom is sin. But if you take it as meal, then the Kingdom remains meal but is influenced by the leaven. Is this not what we have today? The Church influenced and modified by leavenous teaching?

Shabbat shalom, AdHoc.

You are STARTING with the premise that "leaven represents sin," but that is NOT ALWAYS THE CASE! Every analogy that one may make requires one first to set up that analogy with some equation. Yeeshuwa` SAID,

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them; 

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Here's the Greek:

33 Ἄλλην παραβολὴν ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς· 

Ὁμοία ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ζύμῃ ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη ὅλον.

Transliterated, we get ...

33 Alleen paraboleen elaleesen autois: 

Homoia estin hee basileia toon ouranoon zumee heen labousa gunee enekrupsen eis aleurou sata tria heoos hou ezumoothee holon.

And, this translates word-for-word into ...

33 Another parable He-spoke to-them:

"Like is the kingdom from-the sky to-leaven which took a-woman concealing into of-meal 'satons' three [an 'ephah'] until was leavened wholy."

He didn't say the kingdom was like the woman doing something; He didn't say it was like the meal in which the woman put it. He said it was like the LEAVEN! "Zumee" is the word that is in the dative case, translated with the word "to," becoming "to-leaven." THAT is to which the Messiah Yeeshuwa` likened the kingdom from the sky!

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

(2) Jesus is not building a worldwide Empire. According to Daniel 2, the world is fully occupied by a Gentile Empire. Without warning, suddenly, from no apparent source, a little stone pulverizes this Gentile Empire and His Kingdom fills the earth in the ABSENCE of any opposing force.

And how long does it take for a little stone cut from a mountain to grow and become a mountain filling the earth? How long does it take for a little leaven to leaven a BUSHEL of wheat dough?

Furthermore, you can't tell from the dream of Nebuchadnezzar HOW LONG it took or HOW MUCH OPPOSITION was involved! Listen to it again! Daniel said,

Daniel 2:31-45 (KJV)

31 "Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible. 32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 "This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

There are other passages that have to do with the end times, as well.

What do you think is meant by these passages?

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ..."

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man;
38 The field is (=) the world (Greek: κόσμος = kosmos = "world-system"; human politics);
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked [one];
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil;
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (Greek: αἰῶνός = aioonos = "age");
and the reapers are (=) the angels.

At this point, we can do some simple substitutions and re-read the parable above:

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world-system: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world-system? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."' "

Now, include the rest of what He said:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: αἰῶνός = aioonos = "age"). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of HIS kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus, there are TWO kingdoms involved: Yeeshuwa`s Kingdom, which He starts WHEN HE RETURNS! And, the Kingdom of YHWH God the Father that begins at the END OF THE AGE! The Messiah's Kingdom hasn't begun, yet, and WON'T begin UNTIL He has returned! This is a very important concept to understand! We can recognize and identify ourselves as those who will be His subjects when He begins His reign, but we are NOT currently subjects in His Kingdom, nor is He currently reigning!

We see this again in Paul's letter to the congregation in Korinth, speaking of the Resurrections, the "Zeroeth" Resurrection of our Master in 33 A.D., and then the First General Resurrection, when Yeeshuwa` returns, and lastly the Second General Resurrection, just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:8-15, which occurs at the "end of this age," He tells us that there will be HIS Kingdom and the Kingdom of His Father after that:                                                                                                                                                         

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL (UNTIL) HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the LORD God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

I believe this is the ONLY WAY to piece together these two passages correctly without doing damage to either.

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

(3) The Parables depict the Kingdom BEFORE it is manifest. It is "the MYSTERIES" of the Kingdom which change to MANIFESTATION at the END OF THIS AGE The Kingdom is shown in THIS AGE when
1. It fails to bring forth the right amount of fruit (Sower)

The word "mysteries" comes from the Greek word "μυστήρια" or "musteeria," meaning "secrets" in Matthew 13:11 in the plural, but "μυστήριον" or "musteerion," which means a "secret," and it's singular in Mark 4:11. Luke 8:10 is back to the plural.

The parable of the Sower is the ONLY parable that speaks of this current time period. They rest of the parables are about HIS KINGDOM, which doesn't begin until He returns!

Yeeshuwa` said, 

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

and,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have THIS [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..."

It DIDN'T "immediately appear!" And, it still HASN'T "immediately appeared!" The offer of the Kingdom was temporarily rescinded until a generation came who would receive Him as their King! as YHWH God's MESSIAH (ANOINTED ONE) - His CHOICE - to be Israel's King! And, THIS was when it was rescinded:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE (Daniel 9:27)! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord!' (Psalm 118:26)"

THIS will be when the Messiah returns!

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

2. It is forced to grow together with COUNTERFEIT wheat

Nope. This happens AFTER the Messiah is reigning from His father David's throne, which doesn't begin UNTIL HE HAS RETURNED!

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

3. It changes from a small tree with piquant fruit (MUSTARD) to a big tree identical to Nebuchadnezzar's Kingdom
4. Unleavened meal is leavened. 

Leaven must be explained by scripture and nature:
1. There is not a single mention of leaven that is positive in the whole Bible. It is either sin or false doctrine.

UNTIL this point! THIS is the ONE TIME when "leaven" is NOT a type of sin or false doctrine! He is using this analogy to show how His Kingdom will grow behind the scenes and greatly influence the world when He is reigning from Old Jerusalem! Instead of the old commercial, "When E. F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens," it will then be "When the MESSIAH speaks, everyone listens!" He will be a "GREATER than Solomon" in His wisdom! And, His choices will always come out on top! So, at that time, if one wants to be prosperous, he or she will LISTEN to the wisdom of the Messiah!

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

2. In nature, its job is to make the meal something it isn't, and it makes the meal more palatable.

I propose that the four parables given from the boat in Matthew 13 showed the condition of God's people during this age and how they fare until the Lord sends His angels for a harvest. If we look around us we can see the effects of corruption in the Church. If we consider some of tings we do thy are not mentioned not required by God. If we look at the New Testament we find a row of problems - ending with the seven Churches of Revelation 2 & 3. 2nd Thessalonians 2 predicts a"falling away" at the end of the age. And the Lord Who walks among His seven Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 is an unhappy Lord.

Actually, only the first parable - the Parable of the Sower - is about this age. ALL THE REST are about HIS KINGDOM, which doesn't begin until AFTER He has returned!

On 6/19/2024 at 10:21 AM, AdHoc said:

But I think that we agree on my main point. There is no evidence of dead men going to heaven.

I agree, and more. I don't believe that ANYONE "goes to heaven!" We will go "THROUGH the heavens" - THROUGH the skies - on our way to the Middle East, but we will land there! He is coming BACK TO REIGN! Why would He want us to go to Heaven without Him?!

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

I know many believe this, but one may also understand that verse 6 opens it up to all those who belong to the Messiah, and in

Not exactly. Assuming you mean Rev 20:6, that is. 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

 

1 Corinthians 15:23-24, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

How does one define 'they that are Christ's' here? 

What are the attributes of this group?

Many define this as 'every living person who calls themselves Christian'. 

I do not. Scripture does not. 

Nothing in the passage from 1 Cor defines what makes these people 'belong to Christ'. 

Rev 7, 15 and 20 do give us the defining characteristics.

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered upthe kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The Greek says,

15:23   ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι· ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα οἱ Χριστοῦἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ
15:24  εἶτα τὸ τέλος ὅταν παραδῷ τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρί ὅτανκαταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν

15:23 Hekastos de en too idioo tagmati; aparchee Christos epeita hoi Christouen tee parousia autou.
15:24 eita to telos hotan paradoo teen basileian too Theoo kai patri hotankatargeesee pasan archeen kai pasan exousian kai dunamin.

"Eita" means "then, afterward, next."
The Greek word "epeita" is a combination of "epi" meaning "above, over, moreover, or upon" and "eita."

The Second Resurrection is of all those who belong to the Messiah, both Jew and Gentile, and THEN will come another Resurrection after the Messiah has subdued all authorities and powers and given them to God His Father.

Paul gave us THREE special Resurrections, including that of the Messiah Himself in the First Century.

I think we are all well aware that 'first' resurrection is a misnomer. It's the important, chief, primary resurrection. There have been many resurrections over time but this one is set apart as distinct in several ways.

In Rev 20 we can deduce the resurrection of 'the rest of the dead' as being after the primary resurrection. So in the context of the end of the age there are two resurrections with profound, eternal implications for the masses. 

I don't want to confuse this with Jesus resurrection, the many raised at Jesus resurrection, Lazarus, the two witnesses, etc., etc. 

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 25:31 is talking about a WAR TRIBUNAL that Yeeshuwa` will hold after He has taken back His Land and sits upon His throne. This is what the Greek word "ge-enna" (often written "gehenna") means! The word is from the Hebrew גֵּי הִנֹּם or "geey Hinnom," which is the valley on the south-east side of the Old City of Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel (and then of Judah) set up their judgment seats.

It's NOT THE SAME as the judgment that will occur at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20. Notice carefully,

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the 'sheep' on his right hand, but the 'goats' on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the 'sheep'),

What I notice from this is the timing. "When He comes in His glory..." isn't specific enough to know when this occurs. We know when He comes, He stays. With that in mind He is in His glory perpetually. This arrival in glory isn't necessarily the commencement of the judgement as seen in Matt 25, and can't be. 

The only throne we see in Rev is the GWT where we also see the judgement. I know many have this idea this is some judgement of believers and the are given the rewards they earned. Here, "Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." the goats are sent to eternal fire. This isn't going to happen to those in Christ. This is so similar to...

 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 

... it's rational to conclude these are the same events with added information giving us a clearer picture of the dynamic of the final judgement of the last day. 

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

First, this occurs at the time that "the Son of man shall come in His glory." That IS the Second Coming, which we already saw in Paul's "Resurrection chapter" above. So, this is the FIRST General Resurrection.

Yes, the general resurrection at the last day, not the primary resurrection where only the living and the dead who faced the beast are taken up to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. 

That would mean only a specific group with predetermined assigned attributes is resurrected when Jesus returns, and immediately upon His return as depicted in 1 Thess 4:15-18. 

None of those so taken up at Jesus return are going to face a judgement where a number of them are destined to the lake of fire. So this judgement seat of Matt 25:31-46 is not when Jesus returns, it is only when He sits on the throne. Scripture does not show evidence that Jesus taking a seat on the throne is His first act, or even an act near to His long anticipated arrival. 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Notice that verse 41 does NOT say that they were THROWN into the fire (as other passages say); He just told them to "go away!" effectively RESIGNING them to the Lake of Fire. That's that nation's DESTINY! If it's members don't do something, that will be each individual's fate within that nation, as well!

Semantics won't help win the debate. I reject this on the face of it.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Not exactly. Assuming you mean Rev 20:6, that is. 

Shalom, Diaste.

Yes, exactly, bro'. Read this in the Greek:

Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 20:4-6

20:4   Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ᾽ αὐτούς καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θηριῷ, οὐτὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν, καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ Χριστοῦ τά χίλια ἔτη
20:5   οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἀνἔζησαν ἕως τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη αὕτη ἡ ἀνάστασις ἡ πρώτη
20:6   μακάριος καὶ ἅγιος ὁ ἔχων μέρος ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει τῇ πρώτῃ· ἐπὶ τούτων ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερος οὐκ ἔχει ἐξουσίαν ἀλλ᾽ ἔσονται ἱερεῖς τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ χίλια ἔτη

Here's the transliteration:

Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou 20:4-6

20:4 Kai eidon thronous kai ekathisan ep' autous kai krina edothee autois kai tas psuchas toon pepelekismenoon dia teen marturian Ieesou kai dia ton logon tou Theou kai hoitines ou prosekuneesan too theerioo, oute teen eikona autou kai ouk elabon to charagma epi to metoopon autoon kai epi teen cheira autoon, kai ezeesan kai ebasileusan meta Christou ta chilia etee.
20:5 Hoi de loipoi toon nekroon ouk anezeesan heoos telesthee ta chilia etee hautee hee anastasis hee prootee.
20:6 Makarios kai hagios ho echoon meros en tee anastasei tee prootee; epi toutoon ho thanatos ho deuteros ouk echei exousian all' esontai hiereis tou Theou kai tou Christou kai basileusousin met' autou chilia etee.

Here's a word-for-word translation:

20:4 And I-saw (1) thrones (accusative case) and they-sat upon them and judgment was-delegated to-them and (2) the air-breathing-creatures (accusative case) of-the beheaded-ones because-of/on-account-of the witness of-Yeeshuwa` and because-of/on-account-of the word of-the God and who not had-worshipped the beast/animal, nor the image of-it and not had-received the stamp upon the forehead of-them and/or upon the hands of-them, and they-lived and they-reigned with Messiah for-the thousand years.
20:5 The but rest of-the dead-ones not lived-again until were-completed the thousand years; this-[is] the resurrection the first-one.
20:6 Happy and holy/clean/set-apart-[are] the-ones-who have a-part in the resurrection the first-one; upon them the death the second-one not has power but they-shall-be priests of-the God and of-the Messiah and they-shall-reign with him a-thousand years. 

If one was a part of the second resurrection, then the second death would have some power over them! There are TWO nouns that are in the accusative case as the objects of the verb translated "I saw." They were the "thrones" associated with those who sat upon them, and the "air-breathing-creatures" ("souls") who were those once beheaded who were living again. This is why the words "and I saw" were repeated before the word "souls" in the KJV, even though they aren't repeated in the Greek.

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

How does one define 'they that are Christ's' here? 

Anyone and EVERYONE of those who belong to the Messiah who is Anointed to be Israel's King. That includes ALL who will be His subjects, children of Israel, including the Jews (children of Judah), and the believers from other nations!

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

What are the attributes of this group?

The only attribute is that they are the PERSONAL PROPERTY of the Messiah Yeeshuwa`! They are HIS servants and subjects!

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Many define this as 'every living person who calls themselves Christian'. 

I do not. Scripture does not. 

You're right; it has nothing to do with "being a Christian," but rather who will be a member of His Kingdom.

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Nothing in the passage from 1 Cor defines what makes these people 'belong to Christ'. 

It's really very simple: Those whom the Messiah claims as His own are HIS!

On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Rev 7, 15 and 20 do give us the defining characteristics.

I think we are all well aware that 'first' resurrection is a misnomer. It's the important, chief, primary resurrection. There have been many resurrections over time but this one is set apart as distinct in several ways.

In Rev 20 we can deduce the resurrection of 'the rest of the dead' as being after the primary resurrection. So in the context of the end of the age there are two resurrections with profound, eternal implications for the masses. 

I don't want to confuse this with Jesus resurrection, the many raised at Jesus resurrection, Lazarus, the two witnesses, etc., etc. 

There were NOT "many raised at Jesus' resurrection." THAT is a REAL error!  His Resurrection in the First Century was JUST HIMSELF! He was the "firstfruits," a SINGULAR word!

There is ONE general resurrection - the resurrection of the just - at the BEGINNING of the Messiah's reign when He returns to begin reigning over His Kingdom, and there will be ONE general resurrection - the resurrection of the unjust or of the damned - at the Great White Throne Judgment, just prior to the Messiah turning over His Empire to the Father. Those are the resurrections that Paul spoke about in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 24, respectively. It's not that difficult to understand; it's just that some people CAN'T bring themselves to admit they were wrong.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Retrobyter
to add color

[Retrobyter]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:55 AM, Diaste said:

What I notice from this is the timing. "When He comes in His glory..." isn't specific enough to know when this occurs. We know when He comes, He stays. With that in mind He is in His glory perpetually. This arrival in glory isn't necessarily the commencement of the judgement as seen in Matt 25, and can't be. 

Shalom, Diaste.

First of all, let's talk about "glory":

The Greek word so translated is "δόξα" transliterated as "doxa." (G1391 in Strong's Concordance.) It means ...

G1391 δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

Since this entry says that it is "from the base of G1380," it would be good to also look up that word, as well:

G1380 δοκέω dokéō, dok-eh'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, δόκω dókō dok'-o (used only in an alternate in certain tenses; compare the base of G1166) of the same meaning; to think; by implication, to seem (truthfully or uncertainly):
—be accounted, (of own) please(-ure), be of reputation, seem (good), suppose, think, trow.

("Trow" is now considered archaic. It means...

trow | trō | 

verb [no object, with clause] archaic 

think or believe: why, this is strange, I trow!. 

ORIGIN 
Old English trūwian, trēowian ‘to trust’; related to truce.)

When one looks up all of the NT occurrences of G1391, one will see that it is that which makes something or someone stand out, making him, her, or it "VERY apparent!" That can mean the wealth and the splendor of a wealthy person or of a king, and it can mean the brightness of a star against the black background of empty space! It is a "CONDITION" of a person or thing, and thus, an adjectival noun! Something that makes it "stick out from the crowd!"

Confusion sets in when one listens to the imaginations of human beings in the creation of certain, popular, Christian songs, like those that reference "gloryland!" In doing so, people have made the conclusion that it is about "Heaven." By doing so, they have confused the phrase "in glory" to mean "in Heaven." However, what it means, according to 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 is that the new bodies we become when we are resurrected "like unto His glorious body," will be bodies that GLOW! 

Consider:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some [man] will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is]
one [kind of] flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
[and] another of birds.

40 [There are] also celestial bodies,
and bodies terrestrial (all of those mentioned above):

but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is]
one glory of the sun,
and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars:
for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

Stop here for a moment: The thing that differs between the sun, the moon, and the stars is their BRIGHTNESS! And, that is to what the word "glory" refers here. We use the "apparent magnitude" scale today:

The sun has a magnitude of -26.7, the full moon has a magnitude of about -11, and the bright star Sirius has a magnitude of -1.5. They also will differ in color, and the color wavelength can also affect its apparent magnitude. We usually refer to this as the "hue" of the star.

The glory of the terrestrial is something most can't see; it's the infrared light that every living thing on the earth has, and some "glows" are brighter than others. Some refer to these glows as "auras." It's how we can see living things in the night with infrared glasses and cameras.

The glory of the celestial is something we usually notice in the wavelengths of visible light, but they can also "glow" in invisible frequencies, as well - radio waves, infrared, ultraviolet, gamma rays, and cosmic rays, to name a few.

God made them all, and God sees them all!

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first man) Adam was made a living soul";  
the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy (made of dust): the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This is where knowledge of the Greek can help alot! Here's the Greek of verses 42 through 49 in Scrivener's Textus Receptus:

42 οὕτω καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν.
σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 
43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ·
σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 
44σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν.

ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν. 45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

"Ἐγένετο ὁ (πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος) Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν." (Gen. 2:7)
ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν. 

46 ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν, ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν. 47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ. 48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός· τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι· 49καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.

Going through the transitional step of transliteration into English letters, we get ...

42 houtoo kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.
speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;
speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.

esti sooma psuchikon, kai esti sooma pneumatikon. 45 Houtoo kai gegraptai,

"Egeneto ho (prootos anthroopos) Adam eis psucheen zoosan." (Gen. 2:7)
ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.

46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon. 47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos ho dueteros anthroopos ho Kurios ex ouranou. 48 Hoios ho choikos; toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi; 49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

A word-for-word translation is ...

42 So also the resurrection of-the dead-(ones).
sown in decay, raised in incorruption;
43 sown in infamy, raised in glory/fame;
sown in weakness, raised in power;
44 sown a-body breathing, raised a-body blasting-air-like-a-wind.

There-is a-body breathing, and there-is a-body blasting. 46 So also it-is-written,

"Was-made the (first man) Adam into an-air-breathing-creature living." (Gen. 2:7)
the last Adam into a-wind-like-blaster life-giving.

46 But not first the blasting-air-like-a-wind, but the breathing, afterward the blasting-air-like-a-wind. 47 The first man out-of earth made-of-dust the seond man the Lord out-of [the] sky. 48 Like the one-made-of-dust so also the ones-made-of-dust, and like the one-made-of-above-the-sky, so also the ones-made-of-above-the sky; 49 and like we-have-carried the likeness of-the one-made-of-dust, we-shall-carry also the likeness of-the one-made-of-above-the-sky.

So, we shall be raised to new life as a GLOWING body, as the stars shine! Reminds me of a couple of verses:

1 John 3:2 (KJV)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 1:13-16 (KJV)

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Daniel 12:3 (KJV)

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

And, one should check out His transfiguration, which was a vision of His future reign.

On 6/23/2024 at 6:55 AM, Diaste said:

The only throne we see in Rev is the GWT where we also see the judgement. I know many have this idea this is some judgement of believers and the are given the rewards they earned. Here, "Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." the goats are sent to eternal fire. This isn't going to happen to those in Christ. This is so similar to...

 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 

... it's rational to conclude these are the same events with added information giving us a clearer picture of the dynamic of the final judgement of the last day. 

This is going to sound harsh, but it's something I believe that EVERY Christian should think long and hard about: If one is not believing that Yeeshuwa` shall take His throne and reign in Israel, not only during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20 but also for ETERNITY, as EVERY prophecy about the Messiah foretells, then perhaps, that individual is already influenced by the "spirit (attitude) of ANTI-CHRIST!" They are acting and speaking AGAINST the MAASHIYACH 'ELOHIYM (מְשִׁיחַ יְהוָה), the MESSIAH OF YHWH! (See 1 Samuel 24:6.) King Saul was this Messiah, King David was this Messiah, King Solomon was this Messiah, but the ULTIMATE Messiah of the LORD will be the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, who was to be (and still is) "the KING of the Jews!"

Christians are ALWAYS preaching about "going to Heaven when they die"; but they don't seem to understand the IMPORTANCE that YHWH GOD places upon Yeeshuwa` the SON of God being the King of Israel!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel (Gabriel) said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = Greek: Ieesous = Latin: Iesus = English: Jesus). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 AND HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; AND OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

Think about it ...

[Dennis1209]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:01 PM, AdHoc said:

You are correct. The majority of Christians believe that after death a believer goes to heaven. They intellectually state there is a resurrection, but don't really believe it. What for? If you're at your destination, (and Abraham has been there at least 2,000 years), what does the resurrection bring?. I propose that;
This doctrine is leaven - as predicted by the Lord in Matthew 13
This doctrine has not a single supporting scripture
This doctrine is not logical for the dead RISE
This doctrine overturns Acts 2:26-34 were David is still in Hades 50 days after our Lord's resurrection
This doctrine says you may appear before God unclean for the dead are unclean
This doctrine says that you appear before God naked, for the dead are naked (2nd Cor.5)
This doctrine denies the Church because it is the Gates of Hades are moot
This doctrine denies the Church because our bodies are thee members of Christ
This doctrine denies the power of Christ as the Life-giving Spirit (1st Cor.15:45)
This doctrine denies the Work of Christ because men stay dead (Jn.5:28, 1st Cor.15:22-26)
This doctrine forces men to doctrinally manufacture another body, but it is those IN THE GRAVE who hear
This doctrine annuls Christ's resurrection because how can He be FIRST-born if no others are born from the dead (Col.1.18)
This doctrine makes Paul a liar. He said the dead RISE but one in heaven can only DESCEND

If only half of these are correct, we have, as a fundamental doctrine, a very dangerous and damaging situation.

The most famous of arguments is that at His resurrection Christ raised the dead (Ephesian 4:8). But this verse does not address the dead. It addresses the "captivity". The grammar indicates that the "captives" are still captives seeing as they are still "captivity"! It does not say that He lead captivity "FREE".

The deciding scripture is 1st Corinthians 15:23. Those who are Christ's are resurrected "WHEN HE COMES". To this agrees 1st Thessalonians 4. In verse 16 it says that the Lord DESCENDS. In verse 17 we who are alive do NOT PRECEED the dead. They must rise and then TOGETHER we are caught up to "MEET" the Lord. Also agreeing with this are the ten Virgins of Matthew 25. ALL rise at His coming - the wise AND the foolish. The reason is in verse 6. The Bridegroom COMETH!

Hello again, AdHoc. I hope you are doing well. It is illuminating to compare our interpretation of scripture; it educates me on alternate views. We develop our hermeneutics based on a variety of factors. Of course, I will not say I have the correct view, but it makes the most sense in my pea-sized 72-year-old gray matter. Let us discuss a couple of views a bit further. I know we have debated about some of the following before.

We agree there are (or were) two sides of H. Sheol, G. Hades, the torment side, and Abraham’s bosom.

Quote: “The most famous of arguments is that at His resurrection Christ raised the dead (Ephesian 4:8). But this verse does not address the dead. It addresses the "captivity". The grammar indicates that the "captives" are still captives seeing as they are still "captivity"! It does not say that He lead captivity "FREE".

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Paul is quoting Psalm 68:18. “When he ascended up on high” refers to the ascension of Christ. At that time He did two things: (1) He led captivity captive, which refers, I believe, to the redeemed of the Old Testament who went to paradise when they died. Christ took these believers with Him out of paradise into the very presence of God when He ascended. Today when a believer dies, we are not told that he goes to paradise, but rather he is absent from the body and present with the Lord (see 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23). (2) When Christ ascended He also gave gifts to men. This means that He conferred gifts upon living believers in the church so that they might witness to the world. In His ascension, Christ not only brought the Old Testament saints into God’s presence, but He also, through the Holy Spirit, bestowed His gifts.^[1]

This verse has also been interpreted as He led captives in his train (4:8). The captives Jesus led were the evil principalities and powers. Colossians 2:15 uses the imagery of a Roman triumphal procession to describe Jesus’ victory over them by means of the cross.^[2]

I prefer the former over the latter for several reasons, one of which:

Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, ⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Was this proof an open show of the power of Christ and His promises, a resurrection? Did these many die twice and return to the grave?

Unless there are exceptions: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Quote: “This doctrine overturns Acts 2:26-34 were David is still in Hades 50 days after our Lord's resurrection.”

I believe the beloved physician Luke was the amanuensis for the apostle Peter. In Acts 2:25-28, Luke quotes David from Psalm 16:8-11, which David wrote when he was ALIVE. Yes, David’s body is still in the grave unto this day, until the resurrection.

I think the key lies in this verse: Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David wrote this when he was alive, and he knows one day he will die; he knows where his soul is going (Hell – Sheol). David is also a prophet who knows and believes God’s promise that his soul will not forever remain in Sheol. He knows the coming Messiah will be in his lineage, and the Lord will not see any corruption descending into Sheol after His physical death.

David is the only person that is ever said to be: Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

After the resurrection of Jesus: 2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The above indicates being immediately in the presence of the Lord at physical death, not an indeterminate layover in Sheol-Hades. David and all the O.T. redeemed were held captive in a temporary holding place until the Kinsmen Redeemer paid for the debt of sin.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In Luke 23:43, the promise of the Lord to the repentant robber was fulfilled the same day; Christ, at His death, having committed His spirit to the Father, went in spirit immediately into Heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (the Lord’s mention of the place as “paradise” must have been a great comfort to the malefactor; to the oriental mind it expressed the sum total of blessedness). Thither the apostle Paul was caught up, 2 Cor. 12:4, spoken of as “the third heaven” (v. 3 does not introduce a different vision), beyond the heavens of the natural creation (see Heb. 4:14, rv, with reference to the Ascension).^[3]

I believe the torment side of Hades (a temporary jail) is still there and expanding by the day until the Great White Throne judgment, not written in the Book of Life, is sentenced to prison (the Lake of Fire) for all of eternity.

The above is not to say that the popular or majority view is always correct.

 

---

^[1] J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible Commentary: The Epistles (Ephesians), electronic ed., vol. 47 (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1991), 118.

^[2] Clinton E. Arnold, Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: Romans to Philemon., vol. 3 (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 325.

^[3] W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 457–458.

[NConly]

32 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

In His ascension, Christ not only brought the Old Testament saints into God’s presence,

So am right in thinking these OT Saints accepted Christ as their Savior.

Rom 4

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

John 14

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Dennis1209]

57 minutes ago, NConly said:

So am right in thinking these OT Saints accepted Christ as their Savior.

Rom 4

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

John 14

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

To be brief, the way I see it, O.T. saints looked forward to the cross as we look back at it. The Gospel and the Age of Grace were yet future; they were under the Law.

Abraham: Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The standard for Salvation and eternal life has not changed from the O.T. to the N.T. As the Kinsmen Redeemer, the righteous O.T. saints are covered by Jesus's blood.

Righteousness is having faith and believing in the right standing before God.

Believed: Faith, faithfulness, trust. Not worshiping other god’s or idols, but the God of Israel, believing what the prophets and patriarchs preached.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I do not believe that the standard changed between covenants. We now have our own access to the throne to communicate with God, through our mediator and advocate, Christ Jesus our Lord.