Church: Man-made or Jesus made.

[Marilyn C]

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

 

[Who me]

There are two meanings to ' church '.

There is the eternal visible and invisible " Church " formed of every Christian alive or who has lived or who will live.

This Church is not affected by man's inherent  sinfulness and tendancy to be mislead. 

Then there is the organisation church, baptist, methodist CoE, RCC etc and the cultic off shoots JW etc

These are inhabited  by Christians and no Christians and are heavily influenced by man's sinfulness. 

 

Jesus created us to be relational, towards God  parents, children, spouses, friends etc etc and part of that is being involved in a local church.

How else are we to love the unlovely,  do it All by ourselves or together with others!

How else are we going to practically  support those serving as missionaries. Does one pay the cost of supporting a missionary out of one's salary, or do it together with many others in a church based organisation.

[D. Adrien]

It depends. Is Satan presenting himself as an angle of light through his children, or is Jesus truly glorified and the centerpiece of the worshipping body?

If false subtleties are promulgated through the leadership, is it acceptable to just disregard because you have friends in the congregation?

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

 

Good question, Marilyn. The following is what I see and how I interpret it with scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [emphasis mine]

Falling away ~ ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ (apostasia) defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith (Josh 22:22; 2 Ch 29:19; 1 Macc 2:15; Just., D. 110, 2; Tat. 8:1) ἀπό τινος (Plu., Galb. 1053 [1, 9] Z. v.l. ἀπὸ Νέρωνος ἀ.; Jos., Vi. 43) ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ Μωϋσέως you teach (Judeans) to abandon Moses Ac 21:21. ^[1]

God’s authority! What is this falling away? Is it believers, the church, church attendance, slipping away from holiness and the truth of God, and believing a lie? I do not think apostasy happens overnight; in the blink of an eye, it is a process that occurs over a period we are witnessing.

God established human government to restrain and punish evil and resolve legal and civil matters. Christians are not to take their brother or sister to a secular court to resolve their disputes. One role of the church is to influence the government and those who govern us, not vice versa. There has been a role reversal in charity, morals, and values commonly called “political correctness” by the father of lies.

An entitlement mentality has evolved: I am entitled to what you worked for and earned. I am entitled to qualify for any position in the church; otherwise, you are a bigot, homophobic, and discriminating. Church congregations are hiring clergy to tickle their ears, entertaining them with another gospel to make them feel better about themselves and ease their conscience.

I see the definition of apostasy occurring in all the major denominations today in the name of inclusion, acceptance, non-discrimination, and political correctness, ordaining women pastors, transgenders, homosexual and lesbian pastors, and deacons, the acceptance of abominations in the church of God. We are living in the final Laodicean church age. Jesus is now outside of the church, knocking to come in:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The globe's largest denomination, with 1.4 billion adherents: The push and implementation for a one world religion. The Pope Francis ecumenical movement and consolidation of former protester denominations, back under the umbrella of the one true universal church (Catholicism). We have Abraham in common, including letters of agreement with some Muslim sects. Many bazar statements from this current Pope, to paraphrase, who am I to judge homosexuality, I would baptize extraterrestrials if they are in a fallen state, a bonified socialist, first Jesuit Pope, an advocate of climate change policy enforcement, anything, and everything other than Jesus Christ, and the only way for Salvation.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What day? I propose all the signs and world conditions of the approaching tribulation. People became scared during this COVID-19 fiasco. How many attended churches before COVID-19, and because of mandates and fear, stopped attending church and never returned?

It took a lot of rhetoric to get to the heart of your question, Marilyn. Compared to fifty years ago, has the church of God progressed or digressed? How many churches are watering down and perverting God’s word and commandments?

 

 

---

^[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 120.

[AnOrangeCat]

5 hours ago, Who me said:

There are two meanings to ' church '.

This is really key to the whole thing. Believers are the church proper, but the organizational meaning of the term as people understand it is a muddled mess. It encompasses a very wide body that doesn't necessarily need to be all lumped in together IMO.

7 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

God’s authority! What is this falling away? Is it believers, the church, church attendance, slipping away from holiness and the truth of God, and believing a lie? I do not think apostasy happens overnight; in the blink of an eye, it is a process that occurs over a period we are witnessing.

Agreed, though I will note that things are happening faster than they might have in the past. Within the course of my soon to be 44 year lifespan there's been a massive shift in values and taboos, and there's been a backlash against that shift.It seems to me to be of the magnitude that normally took entire generations to occur. I place a lot of credit for the rapid shift on media and improvements in communications tech. Normally community values would pressure people to keep within certain bounds and at the very least make certain things better done in secret if you valued your reputation. With the advent of the internet there's been quite a bit of desensitization and people can reach out to others with similar interests to get a sense of validation for good and for ill.

You touched on another thing that's important. The government has exerted considerable influence on the church for some time now as well. Both it and the falling away in general are unfortunate, but they were foretold. At least for me that takes some of the edge off of a depressing and at times horrifying situation.

[warrior12]

Everything that is made of nominal value is counterfeited. The most popular is money.  Though there is money at play to in the modern church, there is something of more infinite value and it is spiritual seduction.  Where does it emanate from, the father of lies and deception. More to say on this.

As a direct answer, there are genuine body of believers , the church and counterfeit ones. Discernment is needed by the saints more that ever to sift  the chaffs.

In the last couple of decades it has increased with the promises of wealth and prosperity in exchange for  

Edited June 24, 2024 by warrior12

[warrior12]

As others have pointed out , the church is infiltrated by radical liberal movements that can only come from satan.  They call what is good evil and evil what is good and is very angry with Romans 1.  The people who read and understand the whole structure of the word , would not fall for the plot to overthrow the church that Christ has established, but cannot prevail.   Testing of faiths will separate the wheat from the chaffs.   

[Marathoner]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

The churches are man-made, sister. As I've asserted before, members of the Body can be found in the churches; wheat grows among the tares. That sums up the churches rather well.  

After the Lord called me from this world, the first thing He displayed to me was His Body. His Body is transcendent which is to say, we are not limited in space and time to peculiar locations... we are everywhere in this world. We began after He ascended to sit with the Father, and we have never been overcome nor vanquished from this earth. I learned that the Lord is both faithful and true, and that His good pleasure is always accomplished. 

[Mr. M]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

 

Much of the mess comes down to the simplest of spiritual principles:

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

Paul addresses this in his second epistle to Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walk in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts...

[Stewardofthemystery]

Those who belong to the true Church are those who are born of God’s Holy Spirit.  Everyone else is of the spirit of this world.

“Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”