Preamble to Philippians

[Sower]

21 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

If you agree with me, and you posted the verse for some other reason, please ... tell.

I posted;

21 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage

It appeared, in my mind/understanding, to be appropriate to the discussion.
I've often wondered why I would no longer be married to my wife.
I never questioned God's way, knowing it was his plan, not mine.

I had an idea, perhaps incorrectly,
it may have had relevance,  for this situation (ad hoc)....
No male/female, I assumed. I'm obviously no theologian as some.
 

12 hours ago, Sower said:

are as the angels of God in heaven"

Thanks AdHoc.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You made no comment, but in the context of the discussion taking place, it would seem that you judge this scripture as indicative of no marriage at all after resurrection. How then;
1. does the parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25 have them RISING to meet the Groom
2. does the Bride be ready in the presence of the 24 Elders of Revelation 19**
3. does a Wife appear on the New Earth in Revelation in Chapter 21
4. does Paul, in 2nd Corinthians 11:2 "espouse" members of the Church at Corinth

If you agree with me, and you posted the verse for some other reason, please ... tell.

 

** According to Revelation 4 the 24 Elders are a part of heaven. The Bride of Revelation 19 must have been raptured - and that only comes after resurrection (1st Thess.4:13-17)

Are not all (believers) raptured to Heaven when we die? 

Definitely we are not descend before our death and we are not ascent before our death. 

 After we stopped living in this tabernacle because we are in the Life of the resurected Jesus Christ we are raptured to where he is in Heaven. Definitely we do not remain on earth. Raptured as not being in the earthly Tabernacle anymore and he sends his Angels to take us to our Heavenly Inheritance. Not in the Physical body any more but we are cloth in the Heavenly body. The earth is satisfied to have our earthly body and the Heavenly is satisfied to have our Spiritual self and to cloth us with our Heavenly body. Not earthly anymore but Heavenly. Our dwelling place in Heaven. We will know one another there Definitely we are not going to forget who we were on earth but we will not be subject to the earthly bonds. No procreation there. No having children there. No marital relationships with one another, not Angels but like the Angels. Of course we will recognize one another and know the history of one another. We will know who Paul is and what he did and the same with Jesus Definitely and Peter. And ourselves and the tarnished past if there is any or whatever it is but there is not shame and  sadness there as there is only gladness. 

Edited July 8, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Sower said:

I posted;

It appeared, in my mind/understanding, to be appropriate to the discussion.
I've often wondered why I would no longer be married to my wife.
I never questioned God's way, knowing it was his plan, not mine.

I had an idea, perhaps incorrectly,
it may have had relevance,  for this situation (ad hoc)....
No male/female, I assumed. I'm obviously no theologian as some.
 

Thanks AdHoc.

 

All postings should be taken seriously until that person disqualifies themself by overthrowing logic or elementary language. You pose a very valid question. If God intended marriage, why would He abolish it in resurrection? Would it not be at its best then? To answer this (or at least try) we need to see the history and future of the body - for marriage is when you become one FLESH.

Why we all die is reported in Romans 5:12-17. We, without fault, because we were all seed of Adam, inherited his nature after he sinned. The solution is already made apparent in God forbidding access to the Tree of Life. That is, we would live forever (Gen.3:22). Can you imagine living forever in this fallen body? So death is an enemy, but also a solution to our corruption.

Now, God could solve the problem f death three ways. 1. He could let your mother be inseminated again and give birth. But because the fallen nature of Adam comes via the male, you would be in the same position again. 2 He could make a new body via the flesh. But it would still me mortal and He would not be a Savior. Or 3. He could raise your old body, but refurbish, or make it via His Holy Spirit. This way, the new body would contan the elements of the earth but as it was formed by the Spirit, it would be a spiritual body. I do not mean that it would be spirit-substance. Imean it would be vitalized and energized by the Spirit which would (i) end the Adamic nature, and (ii) make it immortal.

2nd Corinthians 5:1-5 shows that God chose the third option. So also 1st Corinthians 15:34-42. This way God reaches all His goals. But in this condition, because of the Law of kinds in Genesis 1:11-12, he would not have normal humans if they procreated. He would end up with an hybrid like the days of Noah when angels (who are spirits) had sex. If He did that He would be accused of been thwarted by Satan (perish the thought). So, God allows us to populate the earth whilst in the flesh. Then comes death. Then comes resurrection without sex.

The Bible shows marriage to be being joined as one flesh. It does not recognize men's traditions of contracts, pacts, pieces of paper, ministers, marriage officers and the like. The man must (1) leave the union of him and his parents (ii) make love to become one flesh, and (iii) and stay (cleave) with his woman. This will fall away for the resurrected without God failing to replenish the earth.

Our union with Christ however is designed to be a spiritual one (John 4:24, 1st Cor.6:16-17). This way, God can command men to "fill the earth" and still have intimate fellowship with Him in Jerusalem and you in New York. With God's full salvation made up of (i) a new birth for the spirit (Jn.3:6), (ii) the transformation of the soul (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.3:18) and the resurrection of the body to be a normal human (flesh and bone), but formed by the Holy Spirit (not sexual union), God achieves all his plans and displays such power and wisdom - to his glory.

Death ends your marriage. Resurrection for the Christian starts a new relationship with Christ and not Wo-man. Since He redeemed you, He is your owner. Since He made you, He owns you. Since His redemption was 30 pieces of silver - the price of a woman - you are bought as a wife. Seeing as you come out of Him (Jn.12:24), you are bone of His bones, etc. Seeing as you become "one spirit" with the Lord, you are His Wife alone. To go with somebody else is fornication.

Very briefly, as I have written much already, Israel is different. They are wife of Jehovah by COVENANT (Mal.2:14). God gave them a divorce for their fornication with idols. He will again be a a husband when (i) They are in resurrection (Ezek.37), and (ii) they have a New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33). Both these take place after Jesus, Israel's King, has burst through the clouds in Matthew 24:31. Only Israel was scattered to the four winds.

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, Sower said:

I've often wondered why I would no longer be married to my wife.

Maybe you will, maybe you won't.

Marital Union in Heaven, and in Creation, Part 1

Matthew 22:30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

This verse is commonly misunderstood, because people project into it more than it actually says. First, what it does NOT say:

– That marriage in heaven will not exist. (Heaven itself IS a state of marriage; that is, a state of union.)

– That people in heaven will be sexless.

– That angels in heaven are sexless, or are only males, having no feminine traits at all.

Now, what the passage DOES say:

– That personal volition regarding 1) the choosing to marry, 2) the choosing of whom to marry, and 3) the choosing to give one’s daughter in marriage,

which currently are all earthly choices of our wills – such solely personal choices will not take place in heaven.

What the Lord has shown me, and others also, is that man-woman marital unions in heaven are omnisciently provided by our Lord and King, who created marriage, and who designed and appointed the original wife for the original man. (Adam didn’t get a say in the matter, because God’s choice was perfect.)

In heaven, our wills will be bound up within the Lord’s perfect will, because that is how we will come to be in heaven in the first place. The Lord’s perfect will, from the very beginning of Creation, has been to bring about a perfect union between the Creation and the Creator – including in every detail of the Creation. The stages of this uniting will be the subject of Part 2.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/3152-marital-union-in-heaven-and-in-creation-part-1/

...during the Millennium, the heavenly New Jerusalem will be being “prepared as a numphē/betrothed woman adorned for her husband.” Rev. 21:2 That more highly-exalted stage of marital union will not be attained until after the Millennium has been completed. Earlier stages have already taken place, although they have not yet been perfected; these will be the subjects of Parts 3 - 6. ALL of these types of marital, male-female unions must be perfected together in one in order for the ultimate marriage of the Creator with His Creation to be completed. (Because for the perfection of the whole to be achieved, every part of that whole must also be perfected.) That Union will be the subject of Part 7.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/3164-marital-union-in-heaven-and-in-creation-part-2-the-origin-of-marriage/

 

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Our not all raptured to Heaven when we die? 

Definitely we are not descend before our death and we are not ascent before our death. 

 After we stopped living in this tabernacle because we are in the Life of the resurected Jesus Christ we are raptured to where he is in Heaven. Definitely we do not remain on earth. Raptured as not being in the earthly Tabernacle anymore and he sends his Angels to take us to our Heavenly Inheritance. Not in the Physical body any more but we are cloth in the Heavenly body. The earth is satisfied to have our earthly body and the Heavenly is satisfied to have our Spiritual self and to cloth us with our Heavenly body. Not earthly anymore but Heavenly. Our dwelling place in Heaven. We will know one another there Definitely we are not going to forget who we were on earth but we will not be subject to the earthly bonds. No procreation there. No having children there. No marital relationships with one another, not Angels but like the Angels. Of course we will recognize one another and know the history of one another. We will know who Paul is and what ge did and the same with Jesus Definitely and Peter. And ourselves and the tarnished past if there is any or whatever it is but there is not same and  sadness there as there is only gladness. 

I am aware that this above is what 95% of Christians believe. It is fraught with difficulties. Try this now. Try to find a verse that says what you have said. You will be shocked to find not one verse that says the above. I don't expect you to accept my argument tonight, but see if I am accurate.

Jesus' death is the most documented death we know of. At death the three parts of man are ripped apart. The spirit goes to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Jesus committed His human spirit to God at death. The body goes to the ground and returns to the elements. Jesus' body was placed in a tomb but saw no corruption. The soul of Jesus went to HADES in the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40, Act.2:26-34). Ephesians 4:7-10 say He went there "first". This is conformed by John 20:17 as He told Mary He had NOT YET ascended.

Jesus resurrection is the most documented. He ROSE. He could only RISE if He was DOWN somewhere. His body was the same one that died. It had the wounds of the nails in it. Jesus ROSE, met Mary BEFORE ascending to the Father, told Mary that He was gong to His Father (jn.20:17). That night He returned and breathed the Spirit into His disciples.

Our dath and resurrection is the same. We die and "give UP the ghost (spirit)". Our body is placed in the earth. Our SOUL goes to Hades. In Acts 2:24-34 David's BODY is still in the grave and he is still in HADES. All this, 50 days after Jesus was RAISED. We get a newly constructed body (2nd Cor.5:1-5) but IT is the same body. The grammar says "IT" is sown in corruption ... "IT" is raised ... "IT" is the same body. Further, it is bodies IN THE GRAVES that resurrect.

Not only do we get our body from the grave but we get it "at the LAST TRUMPET" when Jesus COMES (1st Cor.15:23). In 1st Thessalonians 4:12-18 the dead RISE FIRST (v.16). Then TOGETHER with the living (v.17) are raptured: WHEN? When the Lord comes in clouds!

As you can see, the Bible paints a vey different picture of death and resurrection.
 

[Marilyn C]

25 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Our dath and resurrection is the same. We die and "give UP the ghost (spirit)". Our body is placed in the earth. Our SOUL goes to Hades. In Acts 2:24-34 David's BODY is still in the grave and he is still in HADES. All this, 50 days after Jesus was RAISED. We get a newly constructed body (2nd Cor.5:1-5) but IT is the same body. The grammar says "IT" is sown in corruption ... "IT" is raised ... "IT" is the same body. Further, it is bodies IN THE GRAVES that resurrect.

Not only do we get our body from the grave but we get it "at the LAST TRUMPET" when Jesus COMES (1st Cor.15:23). In 1st Thessalonians 4:12-18 the dead RISE FIRST (v.16). Then TOGETHER with the living (v.17) are raptured: WHEN? When the Lord comes in clouds!

As you can see, the Bible paints a vey different picture of death and resurrection.
 

King David was BEFORE Christ, thus no one had gone to heaven. But now Christ has risen so believers who die are `asleep IN Christ` in heaven.

`God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

`But you have come to Mount Zion....to the General Assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

[Your closest friendnt]

Genesis 15:15. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age.

if someone asks us what can we learn from this scripture? One of the answers is that Abraham was let know that that even though God had promised him to be his God always and not only while he lived but always even after he died. 

God also let Abraham know that at that time when he died they will be seperated but he was still their God and they were still his children. 

What else?  

God let know Abraham that only his chosen children will be Gathered to him at the time of their death not all his children. He let him know that he can fellowship with his other children in this life but that will end at the time of their death. 

But his fellowship with his chosen children will continue after their death because they will be Gathered to him. The chosen children will know that they were gathered to Abraham to their Father Abraham. And Abraham will welcome them by their names. 

In the burning bush God said to Moses that he is the God of Abraham and the chosen children Issak and Jacob and according to his promise the God of all the sons of Jacob. 

Only Issac and Jacob is mention because the other children of Abraham and Esau the other sun of Issac is not mentioned only Jacob is mentioned.  

A little while later God declared that he is the God only of the Israelites all the children of Israel. 

We know that the Bosom of Abraham or the paradise of Abraham was in the place of the realm of the dead but seperated from the dead of the other children of Abraham and Esau and his children and the dead of the rest of the world.  

This is the history to know about Aaron and David and that they were gathered to Abraham at the time of their death. And to know that what the Jews believed at the time of Jesus that they will gathered to Abraham at their death. This is why they were saying that we are the children of Abraham and Isaac to Jacob and we will be gathered to Abraham to what Jesus told them that if they do not believe in him that they will perish because they will die in their sins. Jesus said that because soon he will die on the Cross to shed the blood of the New Covenant. 

That was before the new covenant before the Cross. 

Edited July 8, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, Marilyn C said:

King David was BEFORE Christ, thus no one had gone to heaven. But now Christ has risen so believers who die are `asleep IN Christ` in heaven.

`God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

`But you have come to Mount Zion....to the General Assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Abraham has seen my day and rejoice.  

What is this day Abraham was waiting for and he has identified as the Day of Jesus? 

The Day that God had promised to Abraham.

In Genesis 28:14 God made the same promise to Jacob. 

 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. And all peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 

And to Abraham Genesis 22: 18. And through  your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

The seed of the woman in Genesis 3: God promised to Abraham and then to Jacob that it will come from them. 

The seed of the woman whom the Serpent won't be able to deceived and who will prevail over the Serpent and the Serpent at that time he will loose his authority the authority he got at the time Adam and Eve disobeyed God to eat from the fruit of the tree of the Serpent the forbidden fruit. 

The seed of the woman in Isaiah 7:9 the son to be born from the virgin in Israel. 

God promised to Abraham that the seed of the woman will come from his descendants and he will have to wait for him because through him God will do what he had promised to him. 

In Esaiah 9:6 God said more things about the offspring of Abraham.  

In Esaiah 53 God let the people know how everything will happen how Abraham will be blessed through that offspring of his and what must take place for that to happen. And how the world also will be blessed from that offspring together with him.

Abraham rejoice to know the day of Jesus. Because on that day many things will take place. Abraham will receive the promised of God to be with Him in his own dwelling place. That what Abraham long for and was expecting because God had told him that he will be his God and the God of his children and his children children forever. But as the time passed by the Lord let him know that it will happen but not with him beginning with him at the time of his death but it will happen beginning with his chosen offspring when he will Gathered him and all his children unto himself at the time of the death of the chosen offspring. 

Abraham understood the offspring to come will inherit the dwelling place with God and through him Abraham and his children and all the children of the world will be included in his blessing. 

God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him the Heavens for his inheritance and not only for him but also for all mankind who will believe in him. The special seed of the woman in Genesis God promised to Abraham will come from him will inherit the Heavens for his inheritance but for Abraham and his children and the rest of the world. But he must die first...you will bruise his heel and in Abraham he will die first as the Lamb of God and Abraham and the whole world will be blessed by being included in his Heavenly Inheritance to be gathered with him in God's dwelling place. 

This is what Abraham wanted and hoped for from the beginning but God told him that he does not have the Heavenly Inheritance in God's dwelling place but his special offspring will and you must wait for him.

And Abraham rejoice to know the Day of Jesus Christ that Jesus was the promised offspring and Abraham was waiting for Jesus Christ to die so he can come to him to joint him in Heavenly Inheritance in God's dwelling place. Abraham knew that Jesus Christ has to die first to descend to where he is and to take them to the Heavenly Father who has been waiting for them. Here am I and the children the Lord has given me. 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Your closest friendnt