Wrath v Great Tribulation

[Revelation Man]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:31 AM, Diaste said:

A prophetic obfuscation exists in equating God's wrath with 'great tribulation, such as was not nor even will be'.

One doctrine claims the 'Tribulations Period' of 7 years is all God's wrath ergo, the rapture must occur before the beginning of the 70th Week.

When Jesus is telling us of this time He says, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory".

They weren't mourning before, while already being in the wrath of God? Maybe they didn't know they were experiencing the wrath of God. 

The 6th Seal shows us the wrath of God:

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Is there any way to determine when this wrath would take place? Would this be the beginning of the 70th week? The Midpoint? The very end?

There is a way.

This is the opening of the 6th Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.

This is the Olivet Discourse:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Taking just the event and comparing [Rev 7 in black, Olivet Discourse in red]:

"the sun became black "

"The sun will be darkened,"

" the whole moon turned blood red"

"the moon will not give its light;"

"the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

"the stars will fall from the sky"

"every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

And as Jesus says, this is after the A of D[midpoint of the week] and after the tribulation of those days; which is after the A of D. 

Therefore, God's wrath does not begin at the onset of the 70th week, but only sometime after the midpoint of the week.

 

Yes, this is known, the reason its called the 7 year tribulation is in  John 16:33 Jesus told us ALL TIME is tribulation whilst were are on this earth. But in Jesus we have peace. 

So, we have the 2000 some odd year Christ or Church Age tribulation which gives is millions of deaths of Saints, and those are mentioned in Revelation 7:9-16, we come out of every nation, tribe and tongue.

This TIMELINE is easy to me. 

The Wrath of God falls starting in Rev. 8 with the Asteroid Event. Rev. 6 is God LOOSING His BOUND UP Judgments, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, that is why the 144,000 in Rev. 7 is merely a CODE for all Israel who repents (roughly 5 million Jews) and it is the 1/3 from Zech. 13:8-9 (5 million) repenting at the Two-witnesses behest or preaching's. It indeed starts in the middle of the week, at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290, which IS NOT the AC but is instead the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes) places the AoD, doubt that? Reread Rev. 13 who does it say gets THE PEOPLES to make an Image of the First Beast? The FP, that is el correcto. And in Dan 9:27 it says he (AC) CAUSES the sacrifice to be taken away, he exerts political pressure from afar, but how? The AGREEMENT is just not understood, it will simply be Israel joining the E.U. 

All of God's Wrath emits from only the 7 Trumps, its like a new army tool that has missiles that shoot out, then lets say 10 missiles emit from each missile, the truth is if you shoot 10 missiles, sure you have other missiles going forth, but all of the fire power still came from the original 10 missiles.

Matt. 24:29 descries the 1260 middle of the week Asteroid event bringing darkness via fire & smoke. Jesus returns 1260 days later in verse 30. just like Zech. 14:1-2 is the DOTL as it arrives, then in vs. 3 (1260 days later) Jesus shows up. 

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 is Gods Wrath, no other chapter is REAL TIME WRATH. They run in a straight line, the Anti-Christs timeline runs 100 percent parallel with God's Wrath. Its simple, the final 3.5 years is the Greatest Tribulation mankind will ever know. The first 3.5 years is tribulation, because ALL TIME on this earth is indeed tribulation. So, its semantics. There is tribulation, which we are now in, even great tribulation, then there is the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, never before seen, and which will never be seen again, which happens over the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Triton57]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:41 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Triton57.

I commend you for your ability to reason through a matter. That gives you a "leg up."

HOWEVER, you've made some assumptions that mess up your reasoning:

First, there's more than one "day of the LORD" in prophecy. Sometimes, the prophecy is speaking about "THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE" Day of the LORD, as in Joel 2:31, but other times the prophecy is about a nearer day of the LORD, such as in Isaiah 13:9-11, when Nebuchadnezzar invaded the Land of Israel. (Read the WHOLE chapter.)

Sometimes the Hebrew word "הָאָרֶץ" or "haa'aarets" means "the earth" (as in "the dirt"), and sometimes it means "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel. Very seldom does the word actually mean "the whole planet!"

Also, the Hebrew word "הַשָּׁמַיִם" or "hashshaamayim" means "the skies," even though it is translated as "the heaven" or even "the heavens." It is a DUAL word: In Hebrew, they have the singular number and the plural, but they also have the DUAL number. It is used for things that come in pairs. Here, it refers to the "day sky" and the "night sky," the pair for the atmosphere around this planet and what we may see in it.

Prophecies MUST be read and interpreted within their contexts. One cannot just take a few verses that SOUND like they're talking about a particular subject, and expect it to be really talking about that subject!

Second, who says that the "Tribulation" or even the "Great Tribulation" is associated with a seven-year period of time, whether 7 years or 1/2 x 7 years = 3.5 years? This has always fascinated me. There is NOTHING in Daniel 9:24-27 to suggest that the Seventieth Seven is about the JUDGMENT of God in a "Tribulation period!"

Actually, according to Gabriel, the Seventy Weeks are for the following purposes:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy."

How does one find the "Tribulation" or even the "Great Tribulation" in these purposes? (Hint: One doesn't!)

Howdy @Retrobyter!

I agree, there is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 about either a 7-year or 3.5 year tribulation associated with the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week prophecy is about a period of time appointed to Israel for the very purposes you pointed out.

Quote

Now, there IS an association between the Seventieth Week and the Tribulation, and it's found in verses 26 and 27 and its fulfillment in Matthew 23:37-39:

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 "And [after threescore and two weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not [for himself]: and the people [of the prince that shall come] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end [thereof] shall be [with a flood], and [unto the end] [of the war] desolations are determined, 27 And he shall confirm the covenant [with many] [for one week]: and [in the midst] [of the week] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and [for the overspreading] [of abominations] he shall make it desolate, even [until the consummation], and that determined shall be poured [upon the desolate]."

All of the square brackets are marking off the prepositional phrases within these two verses, which are actually one sentence in Hebrew. Pulling out the prepositional phrases and keeing the helping verbs close to the verbs, we get...

26 "And Messiah shall be cut off, but not: and the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end shall be, and desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant: and he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and he shall make it desolate, even, and that determined shall be poured."

Well you took the first verse I was going to reference in terms of a relation to great tribulation! In verse 26 that the city and sanctuary were destroyed as desolations were determined by Yeshua when He prophesied the destruction of the city and temple at the triumphal entry.

Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:41-44
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

I think the key is the abomination of desolation in verse 27. Yeshua pointed in the Olivet Discourse specifically to Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place where it ought not.

I see the following 2 of 4 passages where Daniel speaks of an abomination of desolation to be historically pointing to that which led to the re-dedication of the temple as depicted in the Maccabees.

Daniel 8:11-12
Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 11:31-32
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]."

You already shared the preposition-free Daniel 9:27 in regards to what I view as the 2 of 4 that are yet future.

Daniel 12:1, 11
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ... And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:26-27 (prepositionally adjusted)
And Messiah shall be cut off, but not: and the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end shall be, and desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant: and he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and he shall make it desolate, even, and that determined shall be poured.

What's interesting about all of them is not just the idea of an abomination of desolation, but that each time the daily was taken away. In fact this is central to understanding the fulfillment of the 2,300 days prophecy as being ereb and boqer, not yom along with the understanding it's according to the religious lunar calendar with intercalary months. 1 Maccabees 1:10, 41-46, 54-56 and 1 Maccabees 4:52-56 give us specific times that is 2,300 daily sacrifices missed from the abomination of desolation to the re-dedication of the temple celebrated as Chanukkah. More on that here.

So the daily sacrifice (evening and morning) being taken away is tied to the abomination of desolation in all four mentions of the abomination of desolation that Yeshua pointed to Daniel for understanding on.

Now Daniel 12:1,11 explicitly ties the abomination of desolation (and daily removal) to a time of unparalleled trouble unlike any other time in history. This means it stands apart from any other similar time, because there is no similar time.

Daniel 12:1, 11
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ... And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Jeremiah 30:4-7
And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Note the parallels between all of these to which Yeshua points to the abomination of desolation (and daily removal) about?

1) This time is for the children of Daniel's people, Israel, Judah, in Judea
2) This time is unparalleled in all of history (there can be only one)
3) This time is cut short for the sake of those going through it, Israel

Now Daniel 9:26-27 still has the daily being removed in addition to desolation, even though abomination is removed, which to me both seems to lay claim to one of the verses Yeshua would have been pointing to regarding what we should look for regarding the end coming.

Quote

Now, without the prepositional phrases, about whom is verse 27 speaking? What is the antecedent for the word "he" in verse 27? It's the MESSIAH! (I can show how the Hebrew means the same thing.)

So, (1) it is the MESSIAH who "shall confirm (shall strengthen) the covenant,"
and (2) it is the MESSIAH who "shall cause the sacrifice and the olbation to cease",
and (3) it is the MESSIAH who "shall make it desolate!"

And, each one of these are fulfilled in the New Testament!

(1) Luke 1:30-33, compared to 2 Samuel 7:12-16 and 1 Chronicles 17:11-14;
(2) Hebrews 10:1-18, compared to Isaiah 53:3-11; and 
(3) Matthew 23:37-39, compared to Psalm 118:22-26.

Note: (1) is the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant; (2) is the satisfaction of the Final and Ultimate Sacrifice that is better than that of bulls and goats; and (3) is the BREAKING of the Seventieth Week in half, postponing the second half until the Messiah returns.

The GREAT "Tribulation" is BETWEEN the two halves! It IS "GREAT"; it's HUGE! It's been going on for almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS! It is "the Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7), introduced BECAUSE of their rejection of YHWH'S King for them! It is a time period simultaneous with the Gentile "Church Age," also called by Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24) which Paul said would last "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).

1) If talking about the Davidic covenant, I see that as an already but not yet prophecy. His kingdom is established in heaven, but part of the prophecy, "he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever," is to come. Ezekiel 37:24-28 As the covenant is not defined that will be confirmed, I can't say it isn't possible. I do believe it cannot be the Mosaic Covenant

2) It depends on if one is descriptive or spiritual whether Yeshua caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. I'm guessing you take the more spiritual side in that the insufficient sacrifices of the Mosaic Covenant were done away with in Christ's sacrifice and so even though they still performed sacrifices for the next 40 years, he caused them to cease? I'm more on the descriptive side in correlation with what I posted above about Yeshua pointing to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel being relevant to an actual event in the future.

3) Similar to 2, the veil was rent in two symbolizing the door between God and man was done away with in Christ's sacrifice.

So I can see where you're coming from without having the prepositional phrases included to adjust the meaning from the text that is written. I suppose I just prefer to use the words that are present.

Quote

So, how are the "days of Tribulation" "shortened?"

Matthew 24:15-22 (KJV)

15 "When YE therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (YOU) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (YOU) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (YOU) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray YE that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

And, let's confirm this with the other two Gospels that speak of the Olivet Discourse:

Mark 13:14-20 (KJV)

14 "But when YE shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then (YOU) let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And (YOU) let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house: 16 And (YOU) let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray YE that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when YE shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then (YOU) know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then (YOU) let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and (YOU) let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and (YOU) let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

The NUMBER OF DAYS WITHIN THE TIME PERIOD are shortened; NOT the TIME PERIOD itself!

I actually think Luke 21 diverges from Matthew and Mark for the benefit of those living in 70 AD.

Luke 21:5-28
And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke's account starts out the same, meaning that when it says "but before all these," it's making a point that what comes next is prior to the timeline of Matthew and Mark. He then goes through the persecution of the early church by the Jews and Gentiles and betrayal by family and friends for His name sake, something I think will be repeated in our future.

Then they are told to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, noting this is all before the end times still. The desolation of it is near as mentioned earlier. Those who do not flee will fall by the sword and be led away into captivity into all nations. We saw this happen in 70 AD.

Finally, the closing point that returns us to the future state. Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles ever since 70 AD. Even now Jerusalem has a Christian quarter, Muslim quarter, Armenian quarter, and Jewish quarter.

I believe for other reasons there is a time coming when the great deception will see a man from the line of David come to prominence bringing Israel back to the Mosaic Covenant. The ultimate end will be the defeating of Israel's enemies, building the temple, establishing the Law in the land and changing to accommodate the appointed times as before with the daily at the temple, Yom Kippur, the whole thing. At some point he will die and resurrect and per Jeremiah 31:31-34 establish his own new covenant not needing the daily and declare himself to be their god, establishing his kingdom form the temple in Jerusalem.

All that to say, it is around this time that Jerusalem will be purged of all that is not holy in the eyes of the deceived and the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Then the Lord will return in glory and gather His bride (fullness of the Gentiles), protect His faithful people in the wilderness, and judge the world.

In this I see the shortening of the time a little differently, that's my take anyway.

[Diaste]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

Yes, this is known, the reason its called the 7 year tribulation is in  John 16:33 Jesus told us ALL TIME is tribulation whilst were are on this earth. But in Jesus we have peace. 

And the obfuscation and gratuitous conflations roll on. 

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

So, we have the 2000 some odd year Christ Age tribulation which gives is millions of deaths of Saints, and those are mentioned in Revelation 7:9-16, we come out of every nation, tribe and tongue.

Non sequitur. 

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

This TIMELINE is easy to me. 

The Wrath of God falls starting in Rev. 8 with the Asteroid Event. Rev. 6 is God LOOSING His BOUND UP Judgments, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, that is why the 144,000 in Rev. 7 is merely a CODE for all Israel who repents (roughly 5 million Jews) and it is the 1/3 (5 million) repenting at the Two-witnesses behest or preaching's. It indeed starts in the middle of the week, at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290, which IS NOT the AC but is instead the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes) places the AoD, doubt that? Reread Rev. 13 who does it say gets THE PEOPLES to make an Image of the First Beast? The FP, that is el correcto. And in Dan 9:27 it says he (AC) CAUSES the sacrifice to be taken away, he exerts political pressure, but how? The AGREEMENT is just not understood, it will simply be Israel joining the E.U. 

What's interesting to me is none of the above is based in the relevant texts.

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

All of God's Wrath emits from only the 7 Trumps, its like a new army tool that has missiles that shoot out, then lets say 10 missiles emit from each missile, the truth is if you shoot 10 missiles, sure you have other missiles going forth, but all of the fire power still came from the original 10 missiles.

Disturbing analogy.

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

Matt. 24:29 descries the 1260 middle of the week Asteroid event bringing darkness via smoke. Jesus returns 1260 days later in verse 30. just like Zech. 14:1-2 is the DOTLs as it arrives, then in vs. 3 (1260 days later) Jesus shows up. 

You should write a book and call it, "Things I Make Up".

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 8, 9 and 17-6 is Gods Wrath, no other chapter is REAL TIME WRATH. They run in a straight line, the Anti-Christs timeline runs 100 percent parallel with God's Wrath. Its simple, the final 3.5 years is the Greatest Tribulation mankind will ever know. The first 3.5 years is tribulation, because ALL TIME on this earth is indeed tribulation. So, its semantics. There is tribulation, which we are now in, even great tribulation, then there is the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, never before seen, and which will never be seen again, which happens over the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. 

Oy!

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

And the obfuscation and gratuitous conflations roll on. 

On 12/10/2024 at 11:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

When defeated on a point roll over and ignore that defeat. BRAVO.

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Non sequitur. 

On 12/10/2024 at 11:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

FACTS that overcomes your whole thesis.

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

What's interesting to me is none of the above is based in the relevant texts.

On 12/10/2024 at 11:26 AM, Revelation Man said:

Of course it is IF.... you want to see the REAL TIMELINE of the Wrath of God its ONLY  in three chapters, 8, 9 ad 16 (I mistakenly had 17-6 when I meant Rev. 8, 9 and 16) not understanding this makes people come to all kind of bad conclusions. After all the Thread Tittle is Wrath vs. Tribulation. So, pointing out the actual timeline of the Wrath is imperative to the speculation & debate.

It is therefore relevant to show Rev. 6 is IS NOT Wrath, and that Rev.  7 is merely the Jews fleeing Judea just before the Wrath falls. Then it is relevant to show what chapters are wrath. Rev. 8, 9 and 16 ONLY. Everything else after Rev. 8 starts is therefore a Parenthetical Citation chapters. All one had to do is be able to add up SIMPLE MATH. Everything has to add up to 1260, God did that on purpose, why people do not do this simple math is beyond me tbh.

So, lets add it up in 1260 day incriments.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 all together add up to 1260 days, God's Wrath starts in Rev. 8 and ends in Rev. 16:19 when Jesus shows up.

Rev. 10 is Mysterious, but the 7 Thunders are he 7 Trumps = 1260

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses Ministry on this earth during the 70th week. They preach for 1260 days  (and pray down Wrath). But they show up BEFORE the DOTL as Malachi 4:5 says and we see in Zech. 13:8-9  that the 1/3 (5 million Jews) repent and then guess what, one verse late the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1-2, so indeed the Two-witnesses 1260 day Ministry starts BEFORE God's Wrath, of course, God wants to save Israel BEFORE the Wrath falls, so they can Flee Judea (Matt. 24:15-17 is Rev. 7 the 12 Tribe being saved). The Two-witnesses show up 1335 days before Jesus' 2nd coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS/Things (Dan. 12:7-13). So, the 2 Witnesses die, but they have already prayed down the 7th Trump, which is the 3rd Woe, which  is the 7 Vials, which emits from the 7th Trump, thus the Rev. 10 proclamation is true, after the 7th Thunder Sounds, time will be no more [as we know it], in other words it will be Jesus time. Because of the 1335 this is a Complicated chapter to add up, most of you guys do not understand the 1335 comes first, then the 1290, BOTH BEFORE the AC shows up as the Beast at the 1260. Its easy to see but people get stuck in what they have been taught.

Rev. 12 is what?? The Dragon chasing THE WOMEN (Israel) for 1260 days, it tells us this chapter "parallels" God's Wrath timeline if we will just open our eyes. 

Rev. 13 is The Beast he rules for 42 Months (1260 days....SEE IT?) 

Rev. 14 does not just cover the Wrath, this is The Harvest Chapter, so all three of the Harvests have to be shown, and vs 14 thus has to incorporate a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib. Rapture, thus Jesus snatches us from upon a cloud.

Rev. 15 is part of Rev. 16, it should be one chapter.

Rev. 17 is is God Judging the False Religions (Whore) via the Beast who only rules for 1260 days.

Rev. 18 is God Judging the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon the Great) and thus it can only be 1260 days and parallels with Rev. 8, 9 & 16. 

Add it up, its simple math. 

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oy!

Too lazy to read I see but you can post quips, that is why you will never learn anything about Eschatology but what you THINK you know brother, which is very little tbh.

When you get to heaven and see everything I stated was true, look me up and admit it.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Revelation Man

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Too lazy to read I see but you can post quips, that is why you will never learn anything about Eschatology but what you THINK you know brother, which is very little tbh.

When you get to heaven and see everything I stated was true, look me up and admit it.

  

On 11/8/2023 at 3:53 PM, Revelation Man said:

I know 100 percent I am correct, you will be taken up with me in a pre 70th week rapture very soon. (The Fall of 2025...quit fighting it....lol)

Tick tick tick....

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

  

Tick tick tick....

Another quipster. Brilliant. As a preacher of 40 years it amuses me you guys spend so much time on these boards saying nothing, get out and spread the gospel brother, because Eschatology is not your calling. I so destroy you guys thesis on every subject you are relegated to being a quipster.

I have seen this quite a bit, people who can never win a debate on any points always turn to short, quipster type answers. I mean why try when you always get defeated in a debate

Edited December 13, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

When defeated on a point roll over and ignore that defeat. BRAVO.

FACTS that overcomes your whole thesis.

Neither is true, and you know it.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course it is IF.... you want to see the REAL TIMELINE of the Wrath of God its ONLY  in three chapters, 8, 9 ad 16 (I mistakenly had 17-6 when I meant Rev. 8, 9 and 16) not understanding this makes people come to all kind of bad conclusions. After all the Thread Tittle is Wrath vs. Tribulation. So, pointing out the actual timeline of the Wrath is imperative to the speculation & debate.

It was actually more the idea wrath and tribulation are not the same but are conflated by certain philosophies. 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

So, lets add it up in 1260 day incriments.

Let's not. lol

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Rev. 12 is what?? The Dragon chasing THE WOMEN (Israel) for 1260 days, it tells us this chapter "parallels" God's Wrath timeline if we will just open our eyes. 

You forgot the part about the seed of the women described as those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Lemme quote that for you:

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Can't be any clearer believers are on earth facing the intense pressure of the evil triumvirate of the Satan, the beast and false prophet. 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Rev. 14 does not just cover the Wrath, this is The Harvest Chapter, so all three of the Harvests have to be shown, and vs 14 thus has to incorporate a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib. Rapture, thus Jesus snatches us from upon a cloud.

If Jesus wanted us to look to harvests then why didn't he mention it in the Olivet Discourse?

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Too lazy to read I see

A thing you know isn't true. 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

When you get to heaven and see everything I stated was true, look me up and admit it.

I don't think "I told you so." is in keeping with the spiritual perfection of the translation. 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I so destroy you guys thesis on every subject you are relegated to being a quipster.

This seems to be an unworthy goal. The truth is what we should seek, not exalting the self.

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

It was actually more the idea wrath and tribulation are not the same but are conflated by certain philosophies. 

On 12/12/2024 at 8:06 AM, Revelation Man said:

And I pointed out the TIMELINE that proves the Wrath is the Greatest Ever Troubles, but that all time on this earth is troubles, my whole point is/was, (which you might or might not agree with) people too often see the word Tribulation or Great Tribulation and jump to the conclusion that it can only mean the Greatest Ever Tribulation, I do not agree with that at all. In Rev. 7:9-16, those who came out of great tribulation being mentioned, came out of the great church age tribulation, who came vi the pre trib. rapture. Jesus specifically says that when the door is shut to the wedding they will not be anyone else welcomed in, they will be LOCKED OUT. So, after the 70th week starts, there will be no one going to heaven, as a matter of fact Rev. 20:4 proves they are all only judged AFTER Jesus' 2nd coming.

So, whilst I agree there can be dissertations going both ways on the overall subject, it all still boils down to understanding that from the 1260 middle of the week on, God's Wrath and the Greatest Ever Troubles are parallel events, which are one and the same, remember, God allows people to have the king their hearts so desire, so God's Wrath is not only his Plagues, but who he allows to rule over men. He used Babylon as a tool of wrath etc. etc. But mere tribulation is always with us as John 16:33 shows us.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Let's not. lol

On 12/12/2024 at 8:06 AM, Revelation Man said:

Yea, dodge the facts, cover your eyes and play pretend, that gives a person brilliant eschatological understandings over time right?. 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You forgot the part about the seed of the women described as those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Lemme quote that for you:

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Can't be any clearer believers are on earth facing the intense pressure of the evil triumvirate of the Satan, the beast and false prophet. 

 The point is the 1260 days CAN NOT be a part of the TIMELINE, its a Parenthetical Citation Chapter that happens at the exact same to as God's 1260 days of Wrath seen in Chapters 8, 9 and 16. Now, this passage actually proves the Pre Trib. Rapture, as I have pointed out many times and never get rebutted. 

The WOMAN is Israel who repents (the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 or otherwise knows as the 5 million Jews who repent) and because the Dragon Satan, vis the Anti-Christ Army CAN NOT get at her, he gets angry and goes after The Remnant [Church] and we know this Remnant can not be Jewish by reading the texts don't we? 

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman(Israel), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood(A.C. Army is not allowed to harm Israel, like in the Desert after Egypt God protects her) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth(Angry) with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her(Israel) seed (Jesus is THAT SEED, read Gal. 3:16 Paul says there is ONE SEED, Jesus), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ(Only, The Remnant Church have that TESTIMONY).

So, this is so easy to add up, you think hey THS PROVES the Church is on earth, no it proves the Pre Trib. Rapture of the Church because it calls the Church here the Remnant and that totally escapes you. A Remnant definition = a Small part of a larger item or entity. 

We can 100% prove this can not be a Jewish Remnant, the portion you quoted proves this. So, Satan gets angry that he can not get at the Woman (Israel who repents and flees into the Petra/Bozrah region) so he TURNS to go AFTER her (Israel's) SEEDS Remnant and thus the Remnant who know Jesus hand have his testimony. but wait, it CAN NOT be the 2/3 Jews because the refuse to repent remember, and they will all die according to Zech. 13:8-9. so it can not be the 1/3 whom Satan can not get after, plus 1/3 is not a Remnant right? And the 2/3 can not have Jesus' Testimony, nor be of God, so this REMNANT can only be the Remnant Gentile Church on earth, a SMALL PART of the FULL Church, who are in Heaven Marrying the Lamb during the 70th week. Now, this all fits, but you will probably  not receive it because it destroys the post or mit trib. narrative brother. The truth is more important that our own narratives in the end. 

So, you never put 2 + 2 together because you have preconceived ideas on the subject which will not allow you to see it, its called a REMNANT by John/God for a reason, because all gentiles who come unto Christ Jesus during the 70th week can only be a Remnant of the church, they can not be the church in full. 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

If Jesus wanted us to look to harvests then why didn't he mention it in the Olivet Discourse?

On 12/12/2024 at 8:06 AM, Revelation Man said:

I meant to say this does not only cover the 3.5 years of Wrath, but instead the full 7 years. The Olivet Discourse talks about Harvests, when Jesus returns in vs. 30 thats the 2nd coming harvest of the 144,000 or 5 million Jews plus the Remnant Church, plus the Wicked Grapes will be slain. The pre trib. rapture is seen in verses 36-51. 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think "I told you so." is in keeping with the spiritual perfection of the translation. 

That's why I am telling you now, because I will not have that mindset then, 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This seems to be an unworthy goal. The truth is what we should seek, not exalting the self.

It revels my aversion to using quips to reply to serious subject matters I guess. 

[Diaste]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

And I pointed out the TIMELINE that proves the Wrath is the Greatest Ever Troubles, but that all time on this earth is troubles, my whole point is/was, (which you might or might not agree with) people too often see the word Tribulation or Great Tribulation and jump to the conclusion that it can only mean the Greatest Ever Tribulation, I do not agree with that at all.

That's because you don't pay attention to what Jesus is saying but rather fancy your self as the chief prophetic interpreter.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

You can't seem to grasp the above. After the A of D, then is the greatest tribulation ever known to man of God. It's a specific time of GT, never before and never again, sandwiched between the A of D and Jesus' arrival. 

It's not difficult, unless you don't listen.