The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Context. That's the key. Context, context, context. 

That may be the key, but you are out of context

I not sure how you can claim this is not a harvest and is wrath. Wrath has not happened at this point. The harvest will occur and then the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

At this verse it looks like the harvest of the righteous.

It is. And you conveniently skipped the verses I posted which show wrath will begin.

 

Revelation 14

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is a different context to verse 15-16. This is wrath.

These are verses of reaping the unrighteous. They are cast into wrath in verse 19.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

But just because we see a picture of these events, does not mean this is the When. What we do see is the harvest of the righteous is immediately prior to the harvest of the grapes of the unrighteous. This order and timing of the two comports with all the written testimony of the arrival of Jesus, the gathering of the elect and the fall of wrath.

This is how the two events in question relate to each other in time/space. We can't even accurately discern when those two events occur in relation to Rev 14:1-13. It looks to me like the whole chapter has elements of successive/concurrence. Some events happen in order, and those are overlayed or underlaid with other events.

Here is Revelation 14:13 It is the Great Tribulation which is the 5th seal

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The harvest of Revelation 14 when the Lord is on a cloud is the 6th seal.

Edited November 23, 2024 by The Light

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Now I'm not. 

So you're saying the martyrs are not being killed at the 5th seal, but rather the seal is presenting a condition going forward?

Yes, the Seals UNSEAL a Scroll of Wrath. Its a Metaphor of course. When Kings sent messages back in that time they had three Wax Signet Ring Seals upon them. Each king had their own signet seals so if anyone broke the seals they would know. So, God is saying I have Divinely (7 = Divine) Sealed these events up, and only when all 7 Seals are taken off can this Judgment Scroll be read. 

These are not God's Wrath, these Seals being taken off is Jesus telling us what will befall the world when that 7th Seal is finally loosed. But he shows us TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. In Seals 1-5 he foretells of the Anti-Christs Actions over a soon to come 42 month period of time. It is not God's Wrath per se, though He allows it, because He gives mankind the desire of their own hearts like he did Israel with King Saul. But mainly this is Jesus foretelling the future earth events over the last 42 months.

Seals 1-5 is the Anti-Christ, he shows how the 1.) AC will go forth Conquering 2.) Bring 42 months of War 3.) Cause 42 months of Famine 4.) Bring 42 months of Sickness/Death and the Grave. And finally he will 5.) Martyry the Saints who repent after the Rapture.

Then as we can see, Jesus FORETELLS the coming Wrath of God via Seal #6. But nothing happens until the 7th Seal is taken off. Its like a Closet with 7 locks, I can take off 6 and tell you what is in there, but until I take the 7th lock off and show you, you have seen nothing yet. This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8l it BRINGS the 7 Trumps and all of God's Wrath is Divinely brought forth in those 7 Trumps. The AC can not go forth until the Rev. 8 Asteroid hits (Wrath of God begins). Rev. 7 is basically this, the Jews Fleeing Judea unto Petra. REREAD IT, the 144,000 is a code for ALL Israel who repents, Gd was never going to give Satan that number. In Zech. 13:8-9 its 1/3, in other places He says He has saved 7000 (Divine Completion) and in Rev. 7 we can add it up, the number 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completion so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or Fulness x Completion or ALL Israel who repents. Notice they flee JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

And you are also saying the martyrs are being killed in the wrath of God? So then God is killing His own martyrs?

 

These are the 5 Brides who were locked out of the Wedding, there will be WEEPING and GNASHING of teeth. Meaning if you miss the Rapture, you will be on this earth during God's Wrath, just like Christians now get killed by Flood & Hurricanes etc. But the Martyrs are not God's Wrath per se, that is Satan the thug killing them. That is why we need to be ready, especially the young who will be weak. 

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Doesn't pretrib say no believer will be in the wrath of God?

 

The Church will not be in God's Wrath, but if you come to Christ after the Rapture then you have sealed your own fate. Once you have been locked out of the wedding you will be on earth for the 70th week events.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Are you saying the the martyrs, "who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." are not believers? 

In order for what you're saying to be true, God is putting them in harms way and is responsible for their death specifically for "the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

Now how is that possible when all the pretribbers get the early escape and never see the wrath of God, because they have the word of God and the testimony and are believers

They missed the Rapture, thus they will 1.) Have to live during the 70th week and in peril 2.) They will have to die in order to gain life, but they should have been ready for the Rapture.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not how it reads, but you go.

On 11/22/2024 at 2:09 PM, Revelation Man said:

 Sure he was, God knows all things and all men's hearts. As I explain the Seals above, it makes perfect sense. We are dealing with an all knowing God who can lay riddles down no one can ever understand until He decides to reveal these things. The 1290 and 1335 are perfect examples, they both are just like the 1290, they are UNIQUE EVENTS which are that exact number of days until ALL THESE WONDERS END (the 2nd Coming is what ends it all)

So, we get that the 1260 is the Little Horn and happens in the middle of the week, but we do not get that the 1335 is the coming Two Witnesses who shows up 1335 days before the 2nd coming or that the 1290 is the False Prophet who defiles the Temple as a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason(named Yeshua) unto Antiochus who welcome Antiochus into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto  Zeus. He then mandated all Jews become Hellenites which led to the Maccabean War. So, the 1290 event happens 45 days after the Two-witnesses shows up and 30 days before the AC goes forth Conquering as the Beast.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

The holding place? You mean, "I saw under the altar...". John is in the great throne room. It's the same altar as:

 

The Dead are dead UNDER the Altar, which simply means they have been Sanctified unto Christ Jesus via his blood. An Altar is where a Sacrifice is made. Those people are dead on earth until Jesus returns to raise them up and Judge them, now read Rev. 20:4 who are judged and when? The Martyrs of Jesus.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

To deny this is to deny God's word.

 

You have to understand biblical prose, God is not going to tell us in the bible everything that is going to happen in so and so order. That is why Jesus spoke in parables.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ makes it clear who these people are and from where they are from and what they are a remnant of; and it's not what you surmise. You only surmise this from a long history of prophetic misinterpretation imbedded by the doctrine of dispensationalism. 

Let's look, not that you'll see, but let's do it anyway. Your words follow...

I have already deciphered it, it can not be a Jewish Remnant, only a Remnant Church of Jesus  the Seed.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jesus is not the seed of Israel.

I gave you the Scripture brother

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

The seed of the woman keep the commands of God and the testimony of Jesus. This can only be those in Christ, as you say. This is correct.

 

The Remnant he GOES AFTER because he is ANGRY he can not get at the Woman (1/3 who REPENT as Zech. 13:8-9 says) soooo it CAN NOT be the 1/3 and the 2/3 DO NOT HAVE the testimony of Jesus it can only be the Remnant Gentile Church. It is what it is.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you are not of Israel you are not the seed of Abraham and are not in Christ. 

 

Which simply means THOSE of Faith, but GET THIS

We will see both Jews and Gentiles raptured Pre Trib. in the Rapture of the Church of Christ AND we will see both Jews and Gentiles saved during the 70th week. The TIMING is all up to the people, but there are still people n both sides of the Rapture who get saved via Jesus' blood.

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

And aside from all that, this is the church of God, a church you all say isn't in Revelation past Chapter 4. Only those that keep the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ are the church of God. 

 

Its the Remnant Church which I never said was not in the 70th week, how can you not be in the 70th week if you do not get saved unto after the 70th week starts? 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

It is. And you conveniently skipped the verses I posted which show wrath will begin.

No. We have chatted enough that I'm sure you know how I read the text. Jesus arrives, He gathers up His elect, and wrath falls. All within a short space and in that order and no other order. Wrath isn't happening before Jesus arrives. Wrath isn't happening while believers, the elect, His friends, are on earth experiencing wrath. Wrath only occurs after His arrival, after the gathering of the elect. 

 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is Revelation 14:13 It is the Great Tribulation which is the 5th seal

I don't disagree. That being the case, it also means there are few other things that occur prior to GT, great, terrifying, supernatural events. 

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No. We have chatted enough that I'm sure you know how I read the text. Jesus arrives, He gathers up His elect, and wrath falls. All within a short space and in that order and no other order. Wrath isn't happening before Jesus arrives. Wrath isn't happening while believers, the elect, His friends, are on earth experiencing wrath. Wrath only occurs after His arrival, after the gathering of the elect. 

 

Exactly. Jesus comes. Then wrath begins.

Jesus come at the 6th seal. Wrath, the Day of the Lord is the one year 7th seal

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Exactly. Jesus comes. Then wrath begins.

Jesus come at the 6th seal. Wrath, the Day of the Lord is the one year 7th seal

 

And GT before Jesus arrives, which is not God's wrath.

[The Light]

On 11/24/2024 at 6:58 AM, Diaste said:

And GT before Jesus arrives, which is not God's wrath.

And the Church being raptured before the GT, and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman being raptured before the wrath of God.

[WilliamL]

On 11/24/2024 at 4:23 AM, The Light said:

Wrath, the Day of the Lord is the one year 7th seal

A way whole lot longer than a year. Lasts from the 6th Seal through the 7th Bowl.

Rev. 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

64. Egypt, Part 1: Its Coming 40-Year Desolation

Provides the evidence, from rarely-quoted biblical End Time prophecies, that reveals the length of, and details about, God’s coming End Time judgment of and later healing of Egypt. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2753-egypt-part-1-its-coming-40-year-desolation/

4 hours ago, The Light said:

And the Church being raptured before the GT

After, not before, the GT.

Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the Parousia of the Son of Man be.  ... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." = 6th Seal

52. The Parousia of the Son of Man

Reviews the use of the term parousia by Jesus, Paul, and Peter, and what is thereby revealed about the sequence of End Time events. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

[The Light]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

A way whole lot longer than a year. Lasts from the 6th Seal through the 7th Bowl

Contraire. The 7th seal, Day of the Lord, wrath of God lasts one year.

Isaiah 34

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

After, not before, the GT.

Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the Parousia of the Son of Man be.  ... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." = 6th Seal

 

Those raptured immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal, when Jesus comes are seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The great tribulation is seen here.

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Those raptured immediately after the tribulation of those days, which is the Great Tribulation, are of the 12 tribes across the earth. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes, and that is why they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 14

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

[JoeCanada]

On 11/19/2024 at 10:52 AM, The Light said:

On 11/19/2024 at 3:09 AM, Diaste said:

You're inserting a time element. We only know that when the harvest occurs, these are the ones that are the initial gleaning. There's no when here in relation to any other event to show there is a long or short time between.

The 24 elders have crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come, and His reward was with Him.

How is it "obvious"? ... and to whom is it "obvious"? 

I know you are claiming that the church is being represented by the 24 elders, and the church has been raptured pre 70th week ... correct me if I'm wrong.

Where do we see the resurrection pre 7oth week? ... because the dead in Christ rise before the alive in Christ are caught up?

Where do we see the judgment that's pre 70th week? 

In Daniel 7, he describes the beast and his blasphemies and boasting, and we know this happens around the middle of the  70th week. And Daniel says he keeps looking until thrones were set up and the books were opened. These books are judgment books and also the book of life. They are opened just prior to the resurrection and rapture. 

How is it that pre 70th weekers say  that these books are opened prior to the 70th week beginning, actually a full year prior to the 70th week beginning, because there can be no reaping during a Sabbath year, which is the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week?

I have a few more about the elders/church ... but please answer this one first.