Before the Wrath

[kwikphilly]

58 minutes ago, Sower said:

We all know The Lord is going to come back. Soon I hope. But I would worry my 'hope for a soon return' may sway my understanding leanings to know just exactly when. It doesn't matter to me, as I have already received my three score and ten and at the end of the other ten by strength.
Having learned more and more concerning the Judgement seat of Christ, I desire more to be sure I'm running the race, disciplining and sharing the Good News, and the good works we were created for.

It is really good to hear/learn about the end times/Revelations like this thread that does give joy for what happens in the future, but I really try to concentrate on the here and now, this day, to allow the Lord to work through me as much as possible. And I would be better at it should we discuss this, to me, a more critical subject as to how each of us accomplishes this and share experiences.

Abiding in Christ, bearing His fruit, pruned by the Father, letting go of self and submitting to God, loving my fellow man best by sharing the Good News. I'm a babe in this, and desire maturity/learning. Slow to speak, quick to hear...

                      "He that winneth souls is Wise"

Thanks, OrangeCat..

 

That is so very important- there's people so very preoccupied by reaching back looking at yesterday or stretching their neck trying so hard to figure out what tomorrow may brinb when we should cherish this day,making the very most of it- tomorrow is not guaranteed to anyone

Ephesians 5;15-17

Understanding the Will of God and the Purpose of your Call

 

 

 

 

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, NConly said:

@Dennis1209

You mentioned 1 Thess 4: 15

Phil 3

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

I am re-writing my question evidently i was not clear enough in the first question so it is gone. I will try to de very specific. Dennis1209 mentioned that when he read 1 Thess his impression was

"To add further to the discussion, if I may, Paul thought the Rapture could happen in his day by using personal pronouns: "

When I read the same verses in 1 This I do not get that same impression as Dennis1209  has.

In Phil 3 I posted what I think Paul believed. I was asking when seems to be what Paul actually believed both are written by paul but Paul can not believe both imo.

 

My theological viewpoint is minor and not readily worth the discussion other than a question: Could Christ have come back at any moment, and can He come back at any time? Those who believe the preceding have a theological term attached: the doctrine of imminence. In that Christ could have come back in Paul's day, and many Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture and Resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We ~ 1609 ἐγώ (egō): prn. (personal, in the 1st pers.); ≡ Str 1473 & 1691 & 1698 & 1700 & 2248 & 2249 & 2254 & 2257 & 3165 & 3427 & 3450; TDNT 2.343—LN 92.1 ἐγώ (egō),

            (subjective)   I (Mt 3:11); ἐμοῦ (emou), ἐμοί (emoi), ἐμέ (eme),

            (objective)     me (Mt 5:11; 11:6; 18:6); (in relationship) my; ἡμεῖς (hēmeis),

            (in plural subjective)           we (Mt 6:12); ἡμῶν (hēmōn), ἡμῖν (hēmin), ἡμᾶς (hēmas),

            (objective)     us (Mt 1:23; 3:15; 6:13);

            (in relationship)       our^[1]

I, me, we, us, and our grammatical text of a pronoun is inclusive of the person speaking it. If Paul was not including himself, I would read them, they and those I would think.

WE, pron. plu. of I; or rather a different word, denoting the person speaking and another or others with him. I and John, the speaker calls we, or I and John and Thomas; or I and many others. In the objective case, us. We is used to express men in general, including the speaker.

 

---

^[1] James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

[kwikphilly]

3 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

My theological viewpoint is minor and not readily worth the discussion other than a question: Could Christ have come back at any moment, and can He come back at any time? Those who believe the preceding have a theological term attached: the doctrine of imminence. In that Christ could have come back in Paul's day, and many Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture and Resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We ~ 1609 ἐγώ (egō): prn. (personal, in the 1st pers.); ≡ Str 1473 & 1691 & 1698 & 1700 & 2248 & 2249 & 2254 & 2257 & 3165 & 3427 & 3450; TDNT 2.343—LN 92.1 ἐγώ (egō),

            (subjective)   I (Mt 3:11); ἐμοῦ (emou), ἐμοί (emoi), ἐμέ (eme),

            (objective)     me (Mt 5:11; 11:6; 18:6); (in relationship) my; ἡμεῖς (hēmeis),

            (in plural subjective)           we (Mt 6:12); ἡμῶν (hēmōn), ἡμῖν (hēmin), ἡμᾶς (hēmas),

            (objective)     us (Mt 1:23; 3:15; 6:13);

            (in relationship)       our^[1]

I, me, we, us, and our grammatical text of a pronoun is inclusive of the person speaking it. If Paul was not including himself, I would read them, they and those I would think.

WE, pron. plu. of I; or rather a different word, denoting the person speaking and another or others with him. I and John, the speaker calls we, or I and John and Thomas; or I and many others. In the objective case, us. We is used to express men in general, including the speaker.

 

---

^[1] James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

I'm confused by all the " extras" - what is the question,,in just plain talk for my simple brain without Strongs or Swanson Dictionary - please🩷

[angels4u]

 

[kwikphilly]

10 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 

Is thst the full length Documentary?

I don't click on videos as a rule- but I believe I watched it on Tubi TV

Thsnk you

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

I'm confused by all the " extras" - what is the question,,in just plain talk for my simple brain without Strongs or Swanson Dictionary - please🩷

Hey ya kwik,

I was only making my case because I believe Paul thought Jesus could return during his and their lifetimes. I used grammatical structuring and Greek word meanings and usage.

As I alluded to, it is only one flawed person's view.

 

[kwikphilly]

28 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hey ya kwik,

I was only making my case because I believe Paul thought Jesus could return during his and their lifetimes. I used grammatical structuring and Greek word meanings and usage.

As I alluded to, it is only one flawed person's view.

 

Lol.... well hello flawed person,meet the other flawed person!

Brother I don't know what Paul thought about Jesus Return in his lifetime,I wouldn't think so though -I think Paul likely thought he'd be dead first to be honest

And I don't know his thought about "their " meaning the Thessalonians lifetime either- it was more important he correct the rumors that the Day had already came- and do he writes a chronology

❤️We can ask him when we meet

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

My theological viewpoint is minor and not readily worth the discussion other than a question: Could Christ have come back at any moment, and can He come back at any time? Those who believe the preceding have a theological term attached: the doctrine of imminence. In that Christ could have come back in Paul's day, and many Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture and Resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Because of the strife and/or friendly discussion (some believe they are the same), Christians start to shy away from the rapture. But let us consider the last vers of John's gospel, 21:25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This informative verse has an implication. It is this; God has limited His Words to us. He could have filled the earth with the exploits of Jesus, but did not. That in turn means that what we get is considered and calculated. If, of all things, the Lord God of the universe chooses to speak of the rapture, who are we to decide its importance or not. It's there. It's a subject that God chose to fill His calculated but limited revelation to men. It behooves us to take it seriously.

Paul thought so too. He was with the Thessalonians for just three weeks and he taught so much that he did not have time to address two questions. These are the subject of his two letters to the Thessalonians.
1. Every rapture in the Bible is a snatching away of a living man in his body - starting with Enoch and ending with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. So what happens to the dead Christians? This is what Paul answered in 1st Thessalonians. His prayer at the end of the Epistle confirms this. A "whole" man is one who has all three parts together - body, soul and spirit (5:23).

2. The persecution in Thessaloniki was so hot and heavy that Paul must flee after three weeks. Then some who knew of the teachings of Paul started a rumor that the persecution was the Great Tribulation and that the Thessalonian saints had missed the rapture. This uncertainty was devastating. Paul answers this miss-information by giving, NOT THE DATE, but various events that the saints can measure themselves.

This also answers what the rapture is for: The rapture then is the means that God uses to move His faithful and diligent disciples out of the danger area. The Greek word is "harpazo" and means "to snatch away". It indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The direction must come from the context. Philip was caught away horizontally in Acts Chapter 8, while the Thessalonians will be caught UP because the destination is the "air" and clouds.

At the risk of sounding judgmental I wold like to observe that to seek the date of rapture is an exercise in futility. The reason is that it is your LIFE-STYLE that will get you "caught away" from the dangers of the Great Tribulation, not what you are doing on that single fateful day. In Matthew 13 the end of the age is clearly stated to be a HARVEST (Matt.13:37.43). And no farmer will harvest what is not ripe. Your being raptured as a firstfruit, or "first-ripe" depends NOT on what you are doing that day, bit your SPIRITUAL MATURITY.

It does not need a Doctorate in theology to se what Paul is speaking about in Philippians 3:9-14. The KJV, for all its glory, did not help us much with its rendering. The Greek describes the DIRECTION - not the position. It is "UPWARD CALLING. Paul is speaking about the same two issues of 1st Thessalonians 4 - an "out-resurrection" WHICH MUST BE ATTAINED TO, and a PRIZE of the "Upward-call" (lit. Gk.). Paul was about 4 years from his martyrdom. He had served and suffered a mountain. He loved the Lord and had lost all worldly things to gain Christ. But he was  uncertain whether he would be counted worthy for that "special resurrection" (literally "resurrection out of resurrection") and the rapture that takes a Christian to the presence of our Lord in the air, which Paul called a PRIZE because you have to EARN IT.

If Paul had doubts about being part of a pre-Tribulation Rapture after all that he had done, I am worried about my self. And so should you all be worried. Forget the date. Eat and drink Christ. Talk to Him all day. Be righteous in all your doings. Love the brethren and your neighbor. The five foolish Virgins are called that because they thought things pertaining to the wedding feast were for FREE. Listen to Paul. Four years later he was sure of his crown. Do you know Christ intimately?

[kwikphilly]

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Because of the strife and/or friendly discussion (some believe they are the same), Christians start to shy away from the rapture. But let us consider the last vers of John's gospel, 21:25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This informative verse has an implication. It is this; God has limited His Words to us. He could have filled the earth with the exploits of Jesus, but did not. That in turn means that what we get is considered and calculated. If, of all things, the Lord God of the universe chooses to speak of the rapture, who are we to decide its importance or not. It's there. It's a subject that God chose to fill His calculated but limited revelation to men. It behooves us to take it seriously.

Paul thought so too. He was with the Thessalonians for just three weeks and he taught so much that he did not have time to address two questions. These are the subject of his two letters to the Thessalonians.
1. Every rapture in the Bible is a snatching away of a living man in his body - starting with Enoch and ending with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. So what happens to the dead Christians? This is what Paul answered in 1st Thessalonians. His prayer at the end of the Epistle confirms this. A "whole" man is one who has all three parts together - body, soul and spirit (5:23).

2. The persecution in Thessaloniki was so hot and heavy that Paul must flee after three weeks. Then some who knew of the teachings of Paul started a rumor that the persecution was the Great Tribulation and that the Thessalonian saints had missed the rapture. This uncertainty was devastating. Paul answers this miss-information by giving, NOT THE DATE, but various events that the saints can measure themselves.

This also answers what the rapture is for: The rapture then is the means that God uses to move His faithful and diligent disciples out of the danger area. The Greek word is "harpazo" and means "to snatch away". It indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The direction must come from the context. Philip was caught away horizontally in Acts Chapter 8, while the Thessalonians will be caught UP because the destination is the "air" and clouds.

At the risk of sounding judgmental I wold like to observe that to seek the date of rapture is an exercise in futility. The reason is that it is your LIFE-STYLE that will get you "caught away" from the dangers of the Great Tribulation, not what you are doing on that single fateful day. In Matthew 13 the end of the age is clearly stated to be a HARVEST (Matt.13:37.43). And no farmer will harvest what is not ripe. Your being raptured as a firstfruit, or "first-ripe" depends NOT on what you are doing that day, bit your SPIRITUAL MATURITY.

It does not need a Doctorate in theology to se what Paul is speaking about in Philippians 3:9-14. The KJV, for all its glory, did not help us much with its rendering. The Greek describes the DIRECTION - not the position. It is "UPWARD CALLING. Paul is speaking about the same two issues of 1st Thessalonians 4 - an "out-resurrection" WHICH MUST BE ATTAINED TO, and a PRIZE of the "Upward-call" (lit. Gk.). Paul was about 4 years from his martyrdom. He had served and suffered a mountain. He loved the Lord and had lost all worldly things to gain Christ. But he was  uncertain whether he would be counted worthy for that "special resurrection" (literally "resurrection out of resurrection") and the rapture that takes a Christian to the presence of our Lord in the air, which Paul called a PRIZE because you have to EARN IT.

If Paul had doubts about being part of a pre-Tribulation Rapture after all that he had done, I am worried about my self. And so should you all be worried. Forget the date. Eat and drink Christ. Talk to Him all day. Be righteous in all your doings. Love the brethren and your neighbor. The five foolish Virgins are called that because they thought things pertaining to the wedding feast were for FREE. Listen to Paul. Four years later he was sure of his crown. Do you know Christ intimately?

Beautifully said Brother

And AMEN!

[Dennis1209]

On 11/12/2024 at 5:43 PM, AdHoc said:

Because of the strife and/or friendly discussion (some believe they are the same), Christians start to shy away from the rapture. But let us consider the last vers of John's gospel, 21:25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This informative verse has an implication. It is this; God has limited His Words to us. He could have filled the earth with the exploits of Jesus, but did not. That in turn means that what we get is considered and calculated. If, of all things, the Lord God of the universe chooses to speak of the rapture, who are we to decide its importance or not. It's there. It's a subject that God chose to fill His calculated but limited revelation to men. It behooves us to take it seriously.

Paul thought so too. He was with the Thessalonians for just three weeks and he taught so much that he did not have time to address two questions. These are the subject of his two letters to the Thessalonians.
1. Every rapture in the Bible is a snatching away of a living man in his body - starting with Enoch and ending with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. So what happens to the dead Christians? This is what Paul answered in 1st Thessalonians. His prayer at the end of the Epistle confirms this. A "whole" man is one who has all three parts together - body, soul and spirit (5:23).

2. The persecution in Thessaloniki was so hot and heavy that Paul must flee after three weeks. Then some who knew of the teachings of Paul started a rumor that the persecution was the Great Tribulation and that the Thessalonian saints had missed the rapture. This uncertainty was devastating. Paul answers this miss-information by giving, NOT THE DATE, but various events that the saints can measure themselves.

This also answers what the rapture is for: The rapture then is the means that God uses to move His faithful and diligent disciples out of the danger area. The Greek word is "harpazo" and means "to snatch away". It indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The direction must come from the context. Philip was caught away horizontally in Acts Chapter 8, while the Thessalonians will be caught UP because the destination is the "air" and clouds.

At the risk of sounding judgmental I wold like to observe that to seek the date of rapture is an exercise in futility. The reason is that it is your LIFE-STYLE that will get you "caught away" from the dangers of the Great Tribulation, not what you are doing on that single fateful day. In Matthew 13 the end of the age is clearly stated to be a HARVEST (Matt.13:37.43). And no farmer will harvest what is not ripe. Your being raptured as a firstfruit, or "first-ripe" depends NOT on what you are doing that day, bit your SPIRITUAL MATURITY.

It does not need a Doctorate in theology to se what Paul is speaking about in Philippians 3:9-14. The KJV, for all its glory, did not help us much with its rendering. The Greek describes the DIRECTION - not the position. It is "UPWARD CALLING. Paul is speaking about the same two issues of 1st Thessalonians 4 - an "out-resurrection" WHICH MUST BE ATTAINED TO, and a PRIZE of the "Upward-call" (lit. Gk.). Paul was about 4 years from his martyrdom. He had served and suffered a mountain. He loved the Lord and had lost all worldly things to gain Christ. But he was  uncertain whether he would be counted worthy for that "special resurrection" (literally "resurrection out of resurrection") and the rapture that takes a Christian to the presence of our Lord in the air, which Paul called a PRIZE because you have to EARN IT.

If Paul had doubts about being part of a pre-Tribulation Rapture after all that he had done, I am worried about my self. And so should you all be worried. Forget the date. Eat and drink Christ. Talk to Him all day. Be righteous in all your doings. Love the brethren and your neighbor. The five foolish Virgins are called that because they thought things pertaining to the wedding feast were for FREE. Listen to Paul. Four years later he was sure of his crown. Do you know Christ intimately?

The following is not about winning a debate or changing anyone’s exegetical view. It discusses our theological views and why. With that said:

I can see the reasoning from your view of who is snatched up and away and who is not. You base the harpazo (caught up) on maturity, fruit, lifestyle, work, and a reward associated with the Tribulation and a restricted harvest. I politely disagree and would like to discuss this a bit further. For brevity:

The thief on the cross next to Jesus being crucified would be in Paradise with Jesus that very same day. Did this thief have spiritual maturity, a lifestyle to get him in, or any works for the kingdom of God? Or was this faith ALONE? The standard for salvation is the same in the OT and NT: faith.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who is the US? To sum up the Tribulation, it is the wrath of God, attached to the Day of the Lord in scripture. The last half of the Tribulations is full strength:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What about immature new baby Christians, faith the size of a mustard seed with no works yet, no displayed repented lifestyle on record yet? Do they experience the wrath of God in the Tribulation? It is a faith vs. works Salvation issue. No doubt there will be Christians in a backslidden state at the Rapture. How do we quantify and define who is ripe and mature enough, if not by faith ALONE?

Under this assumption, they, too, will face the wrath of God. The Tribulation has multiple purposes: the vengeance of the saints, judgment on the earth-dwellers and unbelieving world, the revelation of Jesus Christ, and a last chance to repent, accepting the Lord as their Savior and only hope.

To elaborate by Biblical example: Enoch pleased God and was taken (harpazo-Rapture), spared FROM the near global judgment (Does the true church of Jesus Christ please God?). Noah and the seven were lifted above and through global judgment, a picture of a remnant of the Jews God saves through the worst time ever in human history and genocide.

What about Lot, greedy and a back-slider, choosing to expose himself and his family to the decadence of the Sodomites. What saved Lot from judgment? Through Abraham’s intervention in petitioning God, Lot and his two daughters were forcefully removed from God’s judgment in the nick of time. Lot was counted as righteous. No maturity we know of, fruits, or works mentioned. He believed in God.