Is Israel's chosen status unconditional?

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, slave said:

This is an interesting question I would like to ask you. 

Do you believe that Israel's chosen status is unconditional, meaning that Israel does not have to keep the Law of God to have this status? For example, is a Jew who is an atheist still part of God's people?

I have formulated the question precisely and shortly, so I would also ask for a precise and short answer.

What is your opinion of the Jews?

[slave]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

What is your opinion of the Jews?

I cannot say this here.

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, slave said:

Judaism started with Abraham. Abraham was the first Jew. Even Jews say so.

Why are they not the same? What is the difference between the two? The reason because Abraham was chosen was because he kept the law of God (Gen 26:5).

Shalom, @slave.

Not so. Avraham was BEFORE Yhudah came along! Indeed, Yhudah ("Judah") was one of his GREAT GRANDSONS!

The term "Jew" comes from "yhudiy," meaning a "descendent of Yhudah," which was eventually translated into German as "Jude" where the "J" has a "Y" sound.

"Judaism" comes from "Yhudah" for it was the tribe of the Kings who were the Anointed Ones of God, and God's Temple was there in Jerusalem where the Kings would live.

And, NO, the reason why Avraham was chosen was because "he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness!" - Genesis 15:6. God justified Him for His FAITH, not because He did any righteous deeds of the Law! In fact, the Law didn't come until Moses led the children of Israel to Mount Sinai!

I would recommend a verse-by-verse study of Romans 4.

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, slave said:

I cannot say this here.

Ok

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, slave said:

I cannot say this here.

Shalom, @slave.

Some are nebulous with this sentence: Do you mean that you really CANNOT say? or do you mean that you "WILL NOT say"? OR, do you mean that you're not ALLOWED to say?

[slave]

8 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @slave.

Some are nebulous with this sentence: Do you mean that you really CANNOT say? or do you mean that you "WILL NOT say"? OR, do you mean that you're not ALLOWED to say?

I promised Michael not to go too far. I keep my word.

[Dennis1209]

Short and to the bone, refuting replacement theology.

The covenant God made with Abraham was not exclusively with Abraham alone, but also included his descendants for an everlasting covenant. This covenant was not only for Abraham, but extended to his offspring. Abraham had responsibilities within the covenant, such as to "walk before me, and be blameless, the fulfillment of the covenant was dependent on God alone. This is evidenced by the covenant ceremony where God alone passed between the animal sacrifices, symbolizing His unilateral commitment to the promises. The covenant is described as unconditional and everlasting, based on God's immutable attributes rather than Abraham's actions.

[other one]

30 minutes ago, slave said:

Judaism started with Abraham. Abraham was the first Jew. Even Jews say so.

Why are they not the same? What is the difference between the two? The reason because Abraham was chosen was because he kept the law of God (Gen 26:5).

Gen 26:4-5
 And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
ESV

Abraham obeyed his voice to sacrifice his son.    The Mosaic covenant that we note at the first covenant was not given for around 400 years.    I don't think we know what was given to Abraham.   It would be a big jump to put all the Judaism commandments, statutes and laws on Abraham.  There was no structure to do so for 400 years.    Abraham spoke directly to God and heard directly from him.  They had the relationship we now have through the Holy Spirit.

While I would say that the Jews today don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the relationship that Christians do, they are still his people. Just in case you are not acquainted with this site, it exists as an evangelistic mission to the Jewish people in Israel. The last thing we would want to do is offend them to the point they will not listen to what George is doing and//or saying.

But besides that, I would for everyone's sake say that we as Christians are grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant, and not replace anyone.   None of us non Jews have ever been part of that until Jesus made it possible.   Being Jewish does not make one born of the spirit as true Christians are.  They have to go through the same salvation process as we do.  But they are still the apple of God's eye and he will do what is necessary to bring us all together....    and that is the goal here, so don't mess it up.

[Who me]

3 hours ago, slave said:

Do you believe that Israel's chosen status is unconditional, meaning that Israel does not have to keep the Law of God to have this status? For example, is a Jew who is an atheist still part of God's people?

The answer is in Romans 3:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

Note verse 22+ 23 There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

No difference ce between Jew or gentile. All are sinners in need of Jesus as a saviour.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

4 hours ago, slave said:

Judaism started with Abraham. Abraham was the first Jew. Even Jews say so.

No,  Abraham was not the first Jew nor was he a natural born Jew.  He was a Chaldean (Modern day Iraq) that left his home to settle in the Land known as Canaan later known as Israel.   The term Jew did not even exist until hundreds of years later after Solomon when Israel split into two kingdoms:  Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah.  The Kingdom of Judah later became known as Jews or Judeans.   The Kingdom of Israel became known as Ephraim and later Samaritans.  Anyone who joined themselves to the Kingdom of Judah and followed their ways and their God were known as Jews regardless of race or tribe.   

Abraham may be considered the first Hebrew.   Hebrew children of Jacob became known as Israel.   Much later Israel split and only some of the Israelites became Jews or Judeans.   Being a Jew had more to do with their faith and observances then it did their lineage even today anyone can convert and become Jewish.   Yes, I know there is a lot of debate over if one is a Jew verses Jewish, but I can tell you to God its a matter of the heart not of the flesh.  Even some of Jesus grandmothers were gentiles that were grafted into Israel: Rahab the prostitute from Jericho a Canaanite, and Ruth was Moabite.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Mat 3:9 

...If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. - Jhn 8:39 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Jedi4Yahweh