23 minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese

[mikerunk]

Hey, Mikerunk,

I hope you don't think I or anybody here is trying to beat up on you. Speaking for myself only, I enjoy intellectual debate. That doesn't change my opinion of this book, but I certainly don't think less of you or anybody else who likes it.

actually I find it rather refreshing, it has made me stop and think about every thing. There are many things that have been said that bible verse popped in to my head (personally I believe its the holy spirit giving me the answers based on what I know) that help respond to those things that were said. There been couple versa that people used that normally I would have a hard time understanding it and for some reason the suddenly make sense, there is the one with Lazarus and abraham that some one posted. If I had read that in the bible I probably would have missed the point of what was being said, but when used in the context of this topic it made perfect sense to me.

This actually makes me want to join a bible class.

[Marnie]

This actually makes me want to join a bible class.

How 'bout that?? You'll find a lot great discussions going on around these parts. And there are a lot really bright people here to learn from. I know I've enjoyed picking their brains over the past couple of years.

[Openly Curious]

I have a question....

Looking over his book, he says that he was terrorized by demons in hell. He says they run your life down there.

Arent demons punished too? Why would they have the power to terrorize or to run your life down there? He claims he can back his book with scripture.

Does anyone know the scriptural reference for this? Is there even any scriptural support for this claim? If not, then can his vision/ experience be trusted?

Try this verse found in Matthew 25:41

There are sciptures in the book of Jude and 2 Peter also that tells of how the angels that left their first estate are held in everlasting chains awaiting their judgment for what they done.

No where in the word does it teach that the demonic angels will have authority over anyone for they also will be punished for their evil deeds and will not be used in the manner that was proclaimed in the book. But the word decribes outer darkness, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place where the worm dieth not just to name a few.

OC

[7thseal]

Try this verse found in Matthew 25:41

There are sciptures in the book of Jude and 2 Peter also that tells of how the angels that left their first estate are held in everlasting chains awaiting their judgment for what they done.

Not all are bound in chains, if this were true we wouldn't have people in the Bible and in our times that are possessed with demons. Jesus wouldn't need to give us instructions to cast out demons in His name.

This is my personal belief so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe there are some fallen that are bound in chains because of their severe wickedness. In the Bible it speaks of some spirits being more wicked than others that have fallen. In Revelation its speaks of four that are bound and orders is given to loosen these four to kill a third part of man for they refuse to repent from their sins.

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Are these four angels of God? I don't believe they are....why are they being bound?

[Openly Curious]

Try this verse found in Matthew 25:41

There are sciptures in the book of Jude and 2 Peter also that tells of how the angels that left their first estate are held in everlasting chains awaiting their judgment for what they done.

Not all are bound in chains, if this were true we wouldn't have people in the Bible and in our times that are possessed with demons. Jesus wouldn't need to give us instructions to cast out demons in His name.

This is my personal belief so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe there are some fallen that are bound in chains because of their severe wickedness. In the Bible it speaks of some spirits being more wicked than others that have fallen. In Revelation its speaks of four that are bound and orders is given to loosen these four to kill a third part of man for they refuse to repent from their sins.

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Are these four angels of God? I don't believe they are....why are they being bound?

'7thseal'

Not all are bound in chains,

If you will re-read perhaps you will see that I never said that all the demonic angels were bound in chains. But I mentioned those that were in chains for leaving their first estate awaiting their future punishment while they are waiting in chains now in everlasting darkness.

OC

[mikerunk]

The way I understand it, and granted I still have a lot to learn, is that there are many forms of demons, not just fallen angels. One of the things that Bill talks about is how the bible talks about how Fallen Angels slept with mortal women, and from that came these giants or whatever. He seems to think that these might be some of the demons that are allowed to torment people in hell.

He also says that demons are only allowed to torment man and only to a certain point, and once judgement day has come then even the demons and fallen angels will be made to suffer and that hell will be thrown in to outer darkness.

The thing is I don't know, I've never really been to hell, and as I am a newborn christan I still have a lot to learn, so I can't draw on bible at this point to back up the claims that demons are allowed to torment use in hell. What I will say is that it really doesn't matter, because wheather or not demons are allowed to torment you or not is besided the point, the fact is that the bible does flat out say that hell is a place of torment and suffering. That in it self should be enough.

There is a certain logic to demons having the ability to torment people in hell. While Hell is nothing like a mortal person but in mortal prisons inmates torment each other, yet the guards are there to keep it from getting to far out of hand. Now Hell is nothing more then a prison, the reason it is so bad is because it was designed and made strickly for Satan and his angels, it was not meant for man. So I believe it is possable that god allows the inmates (demons and fallen angels) to torment those who go to hell for the time being. However at some point even they will suffer along with those who don't repent and hell will be thrown in to outer darkness.

The bible talks about a lot of things, it does talk about hell. Now some of it is very very clear and there is no mistaken what it says. However other passages are harder to understand, and can be mistaken for it saying one thing and mean another. This is not because of the bible fault its because we don't understand. I think it is the very reason that there are christans out there who have preconsived notions of what hell is or isn't. In both accounts, Mary and Bill both state that even those who follow christ don't believe in hell, hence why he was showing them.

The question you have to ask your self is this, do you know 100% with out a shadow of a doubt that demons are not allowed to torment people in hell. I can freely admit that I don't know that 100% that they do. What I do know is that all I have to go on is the bible and as I stated Im just begin my journy with christ and have a lot to learn. The other thing I know is that hell is bad really really really bad. Even if there are no demons that are there torment those who go to hell, I still dont want to end up there. I can't take a lot of pain being alive, to suffer eternal pain is well lets say thats enough for me to look at christ and say Uncle.

[ayin jade]

If you are saved (and I am NOT saying you are not saved) then you dont need to worry about going to hell. Saved means being forgiven and going to heaven.

[mikerunk]

True but as a christan you should still know what hell according to the bible. As christans when can debate over wheather or not demons are allowed to torment people in hell, however as christans we must all admit that hell is one very much real, and two that it is a place of torment and suffering. The only way to be free of it is through christ. If christans don't believe hell is real or that it is a place of torment and suffering then how can we be expected to lead others to christ.

The biggest point I will make in regards to Bill and Mary account isn't so much the details, its more the fact that it made me stop and think about hell and what that means to go to hell. What is hell like and how does that fit in context of eternity.

The bible flat out says time and time again that hell is a place of torment and suffering, that it unquencable fire (sorry bad speller) and that those who do not repent will burn in those fires for all of eternity. While I may not be able to grasp the full weight of eternity I was able to think of the idea of being in total pain and suffering and never being able to escape from it.

I am grateful to the lord for touching my heart and showing me hell and finally sending me over the edge and giving my life over to christ. I had been sitting on the edge of giving my life over to christ but I still struggling with many things. Then I read the Bill Wiese book and that made me stop and think about my soul and what will happen when I died. To me that is all that matters.

[7thseal]

Not all are bound in chains,

If you will re-read perhaps you will see that I never said that all the demonic angels were bound in chains. But I mentioned those that were in chains for leaving their first estate awaiting their future punishment while they are waiting in chains now in everlasting darkness.

OC

I'm sorry.

This is what threw me for a loop. " No where in the word does it teach that the demonic angels will have authority over anyone"

We give them that authority over our lives anytime we compromise with sin. Whether that authority continues on into hell for those lost in their sins?......well its a good debate.

[undone]

To me that is all that matters.