Leaderboard

It all depends upon the will and purpose of the Lord. Nothing is hidden from His sight. Seeing as how we are the work of His hand, sanctification proceeds differently for most. This is where religious belief fails, brother. There is no "formula" or predictable timetable at work. The good pleasure of the Lord is at work instead. Our experience isn't dissimilar. I came to the Lord, and the Spirit sent me to the fellowship in the countryside. There, I was baptized in water and taught by a brother while I stayed in a room in his house. After two years, I started wrestling with severe depression but I told no one... this wasn't supposed to be happening, you see. It was utterly debilitating, robbing me of sleep, an appetite, and the desire to be around my brothers and sisters. I started writing and composing music during periods of isolation, and this captured the attention of a sister who read what I had written. She wanted to spend time with me but I evaded her for a while, relieved that my job working construction with brothers gave me an "out." Labor was something I could pour myself into because it helped me to cope with that horrific depression. I could forget about it for as long as I had wood to cut, foundations to dig, or houses to frame. Still, I told no one about it because I didn't know what to say. I didn't understand why it was happening to me. I also didn't know that it would grow so much worse, to the point where I waged war against suicidal ideations. I tried so hard, brother. Construction work dried up, so I devoted my time to caring for elderly brothers and sisters in the fellowship. When I was by myself I continued to write poetry, lyrics, and music to accompany the latter; but I found myself spending time with that sister by virtue of looking after her elderly mother. I had ominous feelings about that. A mutual attraction between us frightened me. She was the only one who could bring me out of solitude, so we spent more time together when I wasn't working. One day, she told me what she had seen when we first met: she saw the man I would become, and it was this man whom she desired to marry. Ah, but she was just as clueless as I was, brother. Both of us were caught up in the flesh, and there was much she didn't grasp. She saw the man I would become, but what she didn't know was what I had to endure along the way there. Marriages were arranged by the elders in this fellowship. She was intended to marry another by the elders, and so our relationship came to an end. It was devastating to us both, but it hit me harder. Every night for the longest time I fought against despair, reliving the past over and again. I was worthless... I had failed the Lord... and He was disappointed with me. I didn't comprehend the long term effects of insomnia with regard to depression and how this increased the severity of symptoms, leaving me vulnerable to despair and suicidal ideations. Long term isolation and sleep deprivation made it unbearable. No one but the Lord knew what was happening to me. No one else had a clue. This was when I was approached by some who brought prophetic words. The first brother anointed me with oil; the second brother spoke of how I would be homeless; a third brother told me to never forget how the Lord loves me, but the last one who came was the sister whom I thought I would marry. I would have to die before I would become the man she had seen when we first met. During the evening, I heard the Spirit speak for the first time in two years. The Lord told me that the elders had decided to cast me out of the fellowship, and that I should not be afraid. They would come to my door the next morning, so I should gather what I needed for the road ahead. I should agree with whatever was said to me and depart with haste. However, the Lord did not tell me where I should go. He was silent regarding that. It happened just as the Spirit said it would. That was the beginning of hard things, brother. I despaired of living and believed that God had cursed me, forgetting that He loves me more than I could possibly fathom. Discipline and learning through trial and tribulation preceded sanctification, and that couldn't unfold while I remained in that fellowship. It was good that I was afflicted so I might learn that I am to live by His every word. Neither a wife nor a family are my portion, but it took many years for me to learn that truth. It wasn't until I almost died that sanctification began in earnest. So, we see that His work in us doesn't conform to our notions and timetables. It proceeds according to His good pleasure.

9-28-23

Oh it makes sense from the prospective of those that have an appreciation of the soon (Quick) return of Yeshua. Both the return for His own, the catching up of the church body, in many individuals eyes "the rapture", are part of the hope certain for those called out to their eternal life with God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit,- all the one triune God. I know that to those not yet called to that by the Holy spirit it is foolishness, understandably so as there is no capacity to see and understand until God lifts the veil at his own good pleasure and in His own time. Till that happens there is no logic that can be seen. What many of us ( Christians) often forget is we too where the very same way, not having yet been called out to knowing our eternal salvation in Christ( Jesus) Yeshua. Rapture or taking by God is not so new a thought. There are accounts of at least seven raptures. Enoch being one account. " So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." 2nd Kings shares of another rapture- that of Elijah "Suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Though not all Christian sects agree or even see a rapture of the church of Jesus, many do, and tend to think that it may occur at any moment. Other Sects think there are yet prophecies to be fulfilled and then a rapture of the church will occur, still others say what rapture? As for myself I am content, content in that the Holy Spirit of God called me to my own repentance of my sin against God, onto seeing Yeshua is God my Lord and savior. After that experience I am game for most anything that may happen. For I am secure, eternally secured to be with God. May God soon bless you with that same wondrous experience! Look for it, listen, ask of God for it even.

Hi Dennis, Interesting questions. 1. Isa. 66: 23 is referring to Israel just after Armageddon, where those who survive will see the corpses of those who came against them. (see Zech. 14: 12) 2. In the eternal state we will not remember anything of our earthly life. We will be changed to like the Lord and only be known as what is of the Lord in our lives now. As you correctly posted 1 Cor. 13: 12. Friends & I have had this conversation and I think that as we don`t remember what we thought like as a young child, now that we are an adult, it will be something like that. Now some people have had terrible family lives etc and those things are not to be remembered again.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Ephesians 1:19-20

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

Boy was that me - highly rebellious teenager! I got all those good things at home too . . . however I didn't want to leave to be in the military, but rather join the ranks of the hippies! So I left home when I was 16 and wound-up basically living on the streets. Things got pretty desperate with the drugs, debauchery and scrapes with the law. But in two years of doing that to the hilt, the Lord had me in a humble place that I would earnestly cry out to Him, and that's when He mightily came in (with miraculous occurrences and healings) and started to change things in my life and heart. If not for His mercy and grace, I'd be counted along with most of my friends who wound-up either dead, in jail, or living in their mom's basement. (seriously!) Yes indeed! As a preface to the story of my salvation above, I actually believe I was first saved when I was maybe 10 or 11 at the little Free Methodist place my grandmother would often send me to on Sundays. I remember coming home with a small pamphlet that I think was titled, "What Just Happened to You." It was about receiving Jesus and I had a sense that His presence was with me and things seemed quite fresh. So, of course, this was an example of the initial, born-again salvation experience (the Seed of life got into me). But over the course of the next several years, the world, flesh and devil worked on me, to bring me into the world and bondage of the "counter culture." However, I always had a very strong seeking in me for what was really the ultimate truth that would make sense of it all. When I finally cried out to him as an 18 year old, that probably began the sanctification process of my soul, which is still occurring. (or, I suppose one could say the sanctification process began when I first received Him at a younger age, but it certainly wasn't so apparent then . . .)

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Philippians 4.8)

Well now - that takes it to another level, doesn't it! What a concept . . . something that's edifying and practical, which would hopefully help to keep us all from going snorkeling in the weeds! Thanks for the input! Again, my hope is that we could keep things simple too, because in reading so many replies on other threads, it seems that when things get more complicated with responses quoting numerous verses, often misunderstandings seem to flourish.

Why is this not in the conspiracy section.... because that is where it belongs. Oooh china's gonna invade. We're gonna run out of toilet paper (again) blah blah blah. Oh yeah, and I have no real sources I can share so your just gonna have to take my word for it. Yeah...I'll believe it when I see it. Meanwhile I'm not going to go out and fear buy. Because you know what, first off I trust God. Second off a wise person keeps a few extras on hand at all times just to be safe. If you don't then your part of the program, because even if this is true everyone waiting until the last minute to buy stuff like toilet paper, will just make a disaster worse. Remember the run during COVID? Reality was there wasn't that much of a shortage to begin with. Just enough to minority inconvenience a few people. But, because a bunch of uninformed and under prepared people overreacted and started fear buying, that minor inconvenience turned into a major problem. Happened with ammo during Obama's presidency. The military, every few years buys a large amount amount of ammo. And I mean large (it is a military after all) of largely 5.56 and 308 ammo, buy a very small percentage of .22 for training purposes. Now, ammo manufacturers know this, they have assembly lines set aside just for the military and make and store the ammo separately from what they sell to John Q public. Now had this been a republican in office, the military would have gotten their order with no affect on civilian sales. But, since it was Obama, all the sudden conspiracy theorists started crying wolf, saying Obama is going after the guns by buying up all the ammo supply. Completely garbage of course, but that's what they said. Next thing you know everyone is fear buying ammo, and lots of it. And the worse part...a lot of people who knew little or nothing about guns, just went into the gun stores and bought whatever was cheapest, which was .22 lr. .22lr which, by in large the military wasn't buying at all. I could walk into a gun store and buy 5.56, which the military does use, but I couldn't find .22 for close to two years. It's still hard to come by, and far more expensive for that reason. All because of panic buying. Stop panic buying people. Stop jumping in fear over every rumor that you hear. We serve a God that is far more powerful then anything in this world.

I actually fall into the same boat. I grew up in a very rapture focused home, felt unworthy, and that I wasn't really in good standing with God. From my early teenage years and beyond I'd periodically get very fearful that I'd missed the event if the people I regarded as mature Christians in the household weren't around. I've grown spiritually since then and feel that my fear of the event was somewhat misplaced. Certainly my relationship with God wasn't super strong back then, but I know now that God doesn't expect us to be perfect, especially when we're too young to fully understand things. I feel prepared now, having a better relationship with God. It took a years long trial by fire but I came to realize that He cares about me and has done a lot to protect and guide me. I think my feelings on it are on the bittersweet side. As I grow older I better understand that our treasures should be in Heaven, and I look forward to seeing familiar faces and seeing what God has in store there. At the same time I feel some regret over what I see as an awful lot of wasted life and not focusing on what's truly important.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54

Amen Brother. I hope Vine will again excuse me for subverting his thread's topic. We have many commonalities, especially in our military service and experience. Having not experienced any abuse as a child growing up in the hands of my parents, I can only sympathize and guess what it must have been like and how that affected you. My experience is not what my parents did to me but what I did to my parents. For brevity, I will not detail much about my upbringing and testimony, as I posted that in the testimony forum here on Worthy. Like you, the military changed my life also, but not for the better spiritually in the long run. You and I both know the importance of camaraderie and fitting in with your peers and chain of command in the military. The military is a cohesive, uniform service with many parts working as one. This sounds much like Christian soldiers and our service, does it not? I first got drunk during advanced individual training (AIT). That turned into many decades of alcoholism and all its associated problems. I was a rebellious teenager; I wanted out of the house on my own at any cost. Living under my parent's roof, three meals a day, housing, nurturing, directing, and loving me, I was not too fond of restrictions or accountability. Be home at such an hour, where will you be, how long will you be there, who will you be with? I could not support myself, yet I did not want to be responsible or accountable. With the Vietnam War raging on, I constantly threatened my father with, as soon as I turn eighteen, I am joining the military unless you will sign for me at seventeen. He would not, so I had to wait until eighteen to join the military. I was a rotten and selfish brat, hurting my father, my shameful arrogance that cannot be apologized for or taken back. My military life blossomed with rank and recognition from the day I enlisted, while my spiritual life sank into iniquity and sin. I do not recall how many times I called on the Name of Jesus in Vietnam to save me from impending death—shortly after that, I forgot all about it and got intoxicated again at the first opportunity. I attended military Chaplin church services in basic training, not because I wanted to avoid the alternative if I did not go to church, but because it gave me peace and a familiar place I was brought up in by my grandparents. From then on, I do not recall attending a church until the mid-1970s. Fast forward through decades, and a long testimonial story short. Shortly after I repented and the Lord changed my life in 2016 and restored me, a Bible verse jumped off the pages of the Bible and profoundly impacted me, even to this day. Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: The military quickly changed my thinking from childish to adult. Jesus changed my spiritual thinking and entire life; he has forgiven and healed me. I have enjoyed many benefits of being a military veteran. I now possess the best gift one can ever ask for: eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 1 Thess 4 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Matt 24 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Each of the above examples shows the dead raised at the coming of Jesus or the elect gathered. I think we all know the resurrection of the dead occurs when Jesus returns, the taking up of those who are alive and remain; the gathering of the elect. The resurrecting of the dead in Christ and the taking up of the remaining living occurs once, when Jesus returns, which also occurs once. That means the loud trump, the trump of God and the last trump are all the same trump. God's, loud and last are various attributes of the same trump. It's like a 4 wheeled vehicle can be a Nissan, a Sentra, car, or a coupe and still be the same car. Loud, God's and last are all the same trump. It's the attribute of 'last' that I want to focus on. We know of only one last trump that is associated with the return of Jesus, the reward for the saints, and the pouring out wrath. It's the last trump of a series of trumps and it heralds: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: “We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,b because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18The nations were enraged,c and Your wrath has come. The last trump is the 7th Trump of Revelation.

FYI - For that post I wanted to give as a response a heart, a praise God, a well said, a thumbs up - but could only do one, so you got a heart! Interesting - I was once in a Christian group (something of a quasi-cult) that sort of did a version of the arraigned marriage thing - I wouldn't go that route any more! And thankfully I didn't let them do that with me (but then again, maybe it would have kept me out of much trouble later on . . . LOL No, not really, the freedom I know is ours in Christ is far too valuable for being under that kind of authority!) Depression is such a nasty thing. I've had a taste of it a few times, mostly just getting bummed-out thinking about how untransformed I am (poor me) at this stage of life. But several years ago, one bought of depression related to a physical condition, was the most negative version I've endured. And after seeing a few doctors, no one pinpointed what was going on. I knew I was in a little trouble when I started to just begin to entertain suicidal thoughts. That scared me! But the Lord sent me a doctor who suggested a certain diet, and the related depression left me. And then I read that no discouragement ever comes from the God of all encouragement! But the enemy, yeah, he's full of discouragement and lies and accusations - in fact, I think he must be the most anxious and depressed person around (he knows the end of The Book and what happens). If we're getting his nonsense, we know we're hooked up to the wrong source! Thanks again for your post!

With age comes a little wisdom; I now have many more years to look back on, reflect on my life, and see a glimpse of how God worked in my life with the blessings and course corrections He made. I, too, vaguely remember accepting the Lord as my Savior at around 10-11 years old—my Sunday School teacher at Chatham Bible Church. I recall I could feel Jesus inside of me. Then, my teen rebellious years seemed to take over. Naturally, like any kid, I wanted to be accepted by my peers and join their activities. Then, one day, I discovered girls; go figure! I was a little different than some of my friends. I hated all hard rock and roll; I think some of that trash was called “acid rock” and other names. I was Diana Ross, Crystal Gail type of listener. I was a little different than some friends and acquaintances, and I did not associate with anyone who drank, used drugs, or smoked pot. I fell in love with a gal when I was seventeen and planned on marrying her. After two years of going steady, we drifted apart. She never told me why we broke up, and it hurt. I suspect we were incompatible, as she started smoking pot with her girlfriends, going the hippie way, and attending rock concerts. I thought guys with long hair, throwing up peace signs, make love, not war dude, etc., were feminine and weird. There are several people I knew in my youth that I have wondered where they are now and how their lives turned out that I will never know. I never joined the “counter-culture” movement or associated with those people. At my age, I guess I was ingrained with loyalty and national patriotism and would not compromise. I suppose it cost me friends and relationships. Now, after seven decades, too numerous to mention, I look back and see many things, events, situations, circumstances, people, and God that influenced and shaped me into what I see myself today. In the course of many decisions and choices in my life, I have wondered, what if I had made a left rather than a right? Where would I have ended up? Of course, I will never know, but there is One who does. 1 Samuel 23:10-13 proves the Lord knows the outcome of every free will choice we could make. That is awesome and why we pray and ask God’s direction, as David did, a man after God’s own heart. One secular adage that sticks out is “Better late than never.”

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. James 3:13

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17

Thanks for posting this Sparks. I watched this a bit ago and it was informative!

If it had no effect we could let it go, it will have a huge effect on lives saved. I will try to give an example why, to the best of my abilities. There is a reason Jesus stated the doors to the wedding would be locked, and those left out will be cast into outer darkness. Those not in the Rapture will of course be in the troubles/God's Wrath/Anti-Christs rules, which both parallel. So, we need to teach the Pre Trib Rapture and the consequences of not making the Wedding call (even 50 percent of "Christians" will miss the call). Why is this so important? If a young man misses the call, or a young lady, or maybe even some older types, Satan is going to have 1001 tricks up his sleeves on how to get these people to accept the Mark of the Beast. He might beat their girlfriends up, or torture their parents, or cut off all food via buying and selling etc. etc. Most of these types will give in to this pressure, they will not die for Christ's names sake, so they will be doomed to hell, all because they heard someone say, Hey, everyone of us are going to have to go through this "Tribulation Period" no matter what. Thus they think like this, hey, I am young, I got time, plus we must all go through the tribulation anyway, so I might as well wait. Well, that is just not what is going to happen, Jesus' Bride will be in heaven. So, it really, really matters, because if we can warn these people with facts, and get them to accept Christ Pre Trib they will not be here during the tribulation period. Many lives will be lost, IMHO, because of this teaching, that is the ONLY REASON it matters to me, if it cost no lives it of course would not matter.

Oh he has explained. In part it was rebellion against his father a very strict Baptist pastor who delved out severe corporal punishment.

It is always a mistake to look at God and his actions only from our view point. Yes the thought of our loved ones having to suffer is horrific. What we know of God is that he is Holy, he is, Just and Merciful. He is not arbitrary or capricious in his judgments. I liken our seeing loved ones separated from God as our seeing a dearly loved one tried and convicted of a horrible crime. We have seen the evidence, heard the testimonies, witnesses the accused and agree with the jury, the verdict is guilty. Unfortunately that is what will happen on the day of judgement, we will know beyond any shadow of doubt that those loved ones are guilty and we will accept God's judgement. I don't know how our feelings will be helped other than we will know that justice has been done.

Many a pilgrim has been heartened by these words as the mortal remains of a fellow pilgrim have been laid to rest....

I do not study so much of what has been or what will be but try to dwell on the here and now, my daily struggle to walk worthy. I do enjoy listening to the more learned ideas about future events, even with so many variations held. If anything, the idea of loved ones, or even strangers, going through those agonies quoted above, should add some dose of boldness to us to share the gospel that they might hear the truth and come to a saving knowledge of God's way to escape those horrors, the really good news to whosoever will. I also have thought of this, Dennis, my friends and relatives that may not have heard the true gospel, so many of them catholic, listening to the RCC works dogma. What can I do now, TODAY, to alleviate even if only a handful, even just one. And thinking on this I've received an urgency to do what I can to sow seed, anywhere, any time, anybody. To whom much is given much is required. I try to bring this up here on the forum but there is very little interest. Predicting end times, calvinism, tats and osas etc etc is the more entertaining. (Sorry about this, felt the need to express): For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But; how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!” So faith (for those without it) comes from hearing, (from those that have it) and hearing through the word of Christ. He that winneth souls is wise! For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.” Good thread, Dennis... Ray Comfort, shares the gospel, how to...link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j2Xh2KgKhY Also, just type in Ray Comfort on U-tube, and enjoy the sharing of the good news...

Here is a guideline that I would propose be considered in the discussion of ANY doctrine. John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or I speak on My own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. With each passage under consideration, rather than see a for or against a doctrine, I seek guidance on living a life in accordance with God's Will, for this is what ascends above a doctrinal debate. For example, with #1 Regardless if someone sees this as for or against eternal security, what should be agreeable is that the Lord's words place as a bottom line for the Christian walk, 'am I in God's Will, or straying from it'?. Does eternal security encourage and exhort others to pursue righteousness and holiness, or does it create a laxity in the laity? That has always been my concern. Not a doctrinal debate, but clearly defined instructions for how we are to live a life that is pleasing to the Father. Entering into a doctrinal debate that is not clearly presented, in that minds guided by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and not the tree of life formulates an endless debate dating from the fourth century is to me inconsistent with that Will. It seems to me to be a completely carnal activity without edification, regardless of how polite the conversation. With each of these passages the exhortation remains the same; "let those who have ears, hear what THE SPIRIT is saying to the Church". This one makes my list of "Worthy Exhortations". Hebrews 3: 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” May every thread and every post be words of "edification, exhortation and comfort".

I guess there is lots of stuff one can worry about. As for myself I am still excited by the Holy Spirit having revealed Jesus to me some 35 years or more ago. I do find today has enough troubles of it's own to tend that I do not need visit tomorrow's potentials today.

Jesus is coming in the clouds when the sky splits open, He's not coming to town in a motorcade or preaching at the UN General Assembly. There is no pretrib rapture so get ready to endure in the power and provision of the Holy Spirit. When armies are encamped in Israel, surrounding Jerusalem, the time of Jesus return is near. Way less than a minute.

I guess if preachers and teachers had been found to be filled with integrity and truth in divine virtue then I may find the above admonition compelling. As it is, I just find it to be demeaning and manipulative. I listened to mankind and was led astray in many things. It's the great lesson I learned over the past decades. Mankind cannot be trusted. 4Certainly not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that You may be proved right when You speak and victorious when You judge.” “There is no one righteous, not even one. 11There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”c 13“Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”d “The venom of vipers is on their lips.”e 14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”f 15“Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16ruin and misery lie in their wake, 17and the way of peace they have not known.”g 18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”h

"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Still do. Saved my life.

Well as others have said it depends on the details. If they weren't fertilized then save the 5 year old girl. Easy. If they were it gets trickier, I'd probably still save the girl because A) She can feel pain B) Has a family already who would suffer from the loss. That doesn't make the embryo's lives not worth anything though. Here's an example would you save your friend from death or a stranger? Most would probably choose their friend. However does that indicate the stranger's life is worth nothing? That they are not a person? Not at all. If it were a pregnant woman vs a man I'd save the woman because I believe that what is inside her is a life. Reality is I'd save both if I could but that's not an option in this scenario.

Hello Rick, I did not want to get into a political debate, but I think ignorance, likeability, looks, and feelings play a big part in voting. Few these days are interested in the big picture, what is best for the country, or have even read the Democratic Platform. 2020-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf Few will read through almost 100 pages to discern their agenda. Many voters are only interested in one aspect: what the government can do and give me. The proof in the pudding will once again be put to the test in the next election.

Praise GOD glory to JESUS. Always watching always ready. Always thinking about Him. Always living as if NOW is the moment. Does hurt to see some not ready not watching. Now the year is 2023 and we have the world of information in are fingers yet some still will not search " None of that pre-trib Darby stuff.". It never started there. I have posted as well as others how some back in 300-400AD (scrolls anyone can read) telling of Christ coming before the great tribulation. Then others before 300ad. But we jump back from 1830 and also in 1600's. Yeah written. So anyone that ignores this its not worth debating. It proves nothing other then there were those that watched ready for Christ to come before the great tribulation. I didn't even touch those of this world that wrote about it We need to remember not to let anyone steal our joy or our crown. Bless you so much for posting this.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

9-27-23

I am excited about the rapture (catching away) as I see the light getting lighter and the darkness getting darker. BUT . . . more than that, I am getting my personal affairs in order regarding serving Jesus in a more dedicated way, resisting sin in my life, obeying the Bible scriptures regarding how I should behave in a dark and evil world. Treating my brothers and sisters right, being quick to forgive wrongs done to me and loving unconditionally. I am more intentional about how to be pleasing to my Master (you know . . . the things that nobody sees but Him). Regarding the rapture . . . . Me personally? I lean towards Pre wrath rapture (when ever that happens) because we are not appointed to wrath. And God has a long history of delivering His people from wicked men, and surprising people by doing the supernatural. I think that all sides of the rapture issue will be surprised when this biblically sound doctrine happens. So lets keep our lights trimmed and ready for Jesus' return. BUT make no mistake about it biblically this event MUST happen . . . . and I am determined to make it to the end and be found faithful serving as best I know how trusting in my Master who loves me and gave Himself for me. Grace and Peace . . . .

Besides 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, you can see the rapture in a number of places. One is the ten Virgins of Matthew 25. Look at the sequence. 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. ... In verse 1 the Virgins "went forth". They had just been given lamps. But the Bridegroom DELAYED so they all died (v.5). In verse 6 there was a shout, just like 1st Thessalonians 4. The Bridegroom is COMING. The Virgins must go out to meet Him. They already have their lamps this time and trim them. The "going forth" of verse 1 is not the "go to meet Him" of verse 6. One "going" was at the start of their Christian life, the second "going to meet him" was after they woke from their sleep. The Lord is coming from above. The only way to "meet Him" is by the Virgins RISING in resurrection and RISING in Rapture. Sadly, the Judgment Seat did not go so well for five of the ten.

A healthy sentiment - scary. The Greek word used quite a few times in the New Testament is "harpazo". It means, "to snatch by force" or "pluck". The word gives movement but not direction. So when 1st Thessalonians 4:17 say we will be "caught up" it is not quite correct. It is correctly rendered in Philip's case in Acts 8:39 - "caught AWAY". But, if the Lord is present in the clouds, and you are caught away to meet Him, the context says "up" is correct. The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. But so also is the word "Bible" not found. So don't mind the students who use this argument to annul the rapture. There is a rapture all right, just as there is a Bible. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 says what it says: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The reason Paul wrote this, as you will note, is that the Thessalonian saints were sad (v.13). Paul had only been with the Thessalonians for three weeks. He had taught them that when Christ came back to earth, He would bring all te saints with Him. Enoch said this and Jude wrote it down (Jud.14). But three weeks is too little to cover every truth, so Pal had not told them how dead men got to be in the sky, seeing as dead men are in Hades (the soul) and their graves (the body). The Thessalonian saints were sad because some of their brothers and sisters in the Church had died. Now only LIVING men are raptured - like Enoch, Elijah, Jesus and the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. So the Thessalonians "sorrowed" because they thought their relations would not be among those who Christ brought with Him. Paul explains how the dead will not suffer any disadvantage. The living will not "pre-vent" the dead. They will RISE first to the surface of the earth, then TOGETHER (v.17) with the LIVING, they will be "caught away" to meet the Lord in the air. In this manner will the dead be with the Lord when He comes. Paul ends the words with "comfort those who were sorrowing" with these words. However, your feeling of "scary" is warranted. You get caught away, but the next thing that happens is you come before the Judgement seat of Christ. Are you ready for that? There is an example of "THAT DAY" in Matthew 7:21-23.

Ah, but what you wrote does indeed relate to our brother's topic. Salvation and sanctification tell the story of how our Lord Jesus Christ took us as we were from this world, claiming us as His own and how, according to His good pleasure, He changes us. We are changed by the power of God, conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit over the course of time (from glory to glory). His work in us isn't accomplished overnight. I'm not familiar with your testimony, brother. I'll look for it (I assume you posted your testimony in the Testimonies forum) but let me say that it's an honor to know you as it were. I'm blessed and edified to read about the Lord's work in you! In keeping with the progressive quality of His work and revelation to us along the way, I will share His work in one who was very close to me: my late father. My father enlisted in the Army just after the Korean War. He ostensibly joined to play trombone in the U.S. Army Signal Corps band, but his first duty assignment following training was Saudi Arabia. This was followed by a stint in Iran. My father was positioned somewhere in the Syrian Desert, snooping on Soviet radio traffic. During Vietnam, my family was removed from the U.S. and placed in a secure DoD compound in Bangkok, Thailand, while my father did what he did over there. I have no idea what that was. This is important, but I wouldn't know that until years after I was born. When I recalled how my father suddenly disappeared one day during the mid 1970s --- he was sent to Ethiopia during the communist civil war --- an understanding dawned upon me. The CIA operated listening posts all over the African continent, and they typically used military personnel to handle their operation and maintenance. My father was a military "spook." I only learned about him --- and what he had suffered --- after the power of God moved upon my father during my early teens. This happened when my father sought to kill me. He was overcome with terrifying rage (I witnessed this rage in action during my childhood), but something happened which caused the most astonishing change to occur. He saw himself in my eyes, and he realized what he had purposed to do and also, what he had been doing to all of us all along. Did my father belong to the Lord? Yes. His ability to play musical instruments wasn't a sham, for he played a variety of instruments in the Baptist church where he was born and raised. While I was on leave after my first duty assignment, my father invited me to accompany him to meet the only living relative he loved. I met this elderly lady --- she was pushing 90 --- and she proceeded to tell me about the horrible tragedy of my father's childhood. What I had suffered, he had suffered as well. My father remained silent while this wonderful lady told me how my father was taken from his mother (she was colored during the era of Jim Crow) before he was 3 months old. What he endured by the hands of an abusive uncle left me speechless. I didn't know, brother. I never knew what my father had suffered during my own ordeal. This, coupled with whatever was done to him during the Vietnam war, opened my eyes and understanding for the first time. Extreme things can do terrible things to men, women, and children, and so I experienced the same thing that had happened to my father. When I looked into his eyes, I saw myself. My mother was a different story. Understanding would not arrive until many years after I came to the Lord. The revelation of what was done to my mother came while I recovered from a close brush with the grave. I received a call from the sibling who kept in secret contact with me now and then over the years --- she never truly turned her back on me --- after my mother passed (she died while I was sick). What my sister told me turned everything I believed upside down. I cried out to the Lord because I couldn't understand! Forgiving my father wasn't difficult, but it took time to forgive my mother. Forgiveness has nothing to do with excusing someone... it has to do with letting go of trespass. We hold nothing against the trespasser. Letting go of the trespass was the work of the Lord in me. When this was done, I began to learn the nature of what I had suffered, and what it had done to me. The Lord did so much more than heal this body when I almost died. He made me whole! Our walk with Jesus Christ is progressive, moving through seasons and times, for there is a time and season for every matter under heaven. God is good.

I also see this as vital to understand because the man of sin will declare himself to be God and this truth will prove him to be a liar.

May I suggest that you compare the church practices you are familiar with to the account given by Justin Martyr:- ‘On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors [give assistance to] the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.’ this was written to explain how Christians worshipped and to show there was nothing anti social or rebellious about it, he wrote in the 2nd century.

as Michael said, there has been a number of discussions on here, and recently, concerning this. Three of them can be found here: If you do a search on "primitive church" or "pilgrim church" on here, you may find even more threads. Personally, I believe in the early church gatherings there was much more open participation by all members. Today there is too often an emphasis on a few, up front. I think that tends to squelch the full functioning of the body and its individual members.

I would say it depends on the church and denomination. Many churches are prosperity Gospel and work-based Salvation today. When the apostles started establishing the new churches, they were hosted by people in their home underground churches. I would not think they were making a loud noise of music and singing worship music unto the Lord because of Roman and Jewish persecution for the first couple of centuries. Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. What is a church, a building? No, the church is a body of believers coming together (the body of Christ) with one common and shared purpose. To worship, adore, honor, and praise the One who loves us, saved us, and the Creator of all that is. Christian soldiers are not confined just inside barracks but go forth into their community, sharing the Gospel and planting the seed to save souls. Jesus is the reason for every season. Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If Jesus is standing outside the church door knocking, asking to come in, the love for Jesus has left that church. If Jesus is not the head, center of attention, reason, praise, honor, and worship, it is just a building. If Jesus is not first and foremost, we might as well have rock and roll musical entertainment, tickle the congregation’s ears, have a Starbucks coffee stand and babysitting services, and attendant parking to fill the pews and coffers. 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. It is hard to observe and partake of communion without a body of believers. The Lord appointed bishops, angels, and pastors over the churches to lead and feed His sheep. Just my partial biblical view of what a church should be.

When we talk about what is not in the Bible it would be profitable to talk about what is in the Bible as well for the purpose of comparison and, if needed, correction. To tell the truth, I don't know what a Biblically correct Church service should look like since I've only been exposed to modern services as conducted in various Churches.

Quite a bit. We have many threads on the topic. Eph 5:18-21 Don’t be drunken with wine, in which is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, (19) speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; singing, and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (20) giving thanks always concerning all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God, even the Father; (21) subjecting yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ.

Great response. Would you say then that progressive sanctification is disobedience to the heavenly vision? Acts 26: 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

There is a play on words found in 1 Thessalonians 4, if you get past the translation. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. Some translations use much harsher wording than “disregards”, such as despises. This is unnecessary, since the word simply means “to set aside”. [G114] atheteo=to do away with, to set aside, disregard You need not despise God or reject his Word to neglect His Spirit. Herein lies the wordplay: 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor... 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. The word sanctification means “to be set aside” for God’s use. So Paul is saying if you set aside his instruction you set aside God, not his instructions. Then he adds, “Who has given us His Holy Spirit” to emphasize that this is the work of God’s Spirit in you.