Catholics and Christians are to pray for unity

[ncn]

Catholicism is actually growing especially in the continents of Asia and Africa - countries that are predominantly pagan. You conquer more with love and mercy rather than with the sword.

But then so are Jehovah witnesses and Mormons, they don't conquer with the sword but with word of mouth.

Are they The Truth and The Light?

Growth in numbers does not necessarily mean truth!

[carlos123]

Below is the Scripture we describe of our brothers and sisters who are NOT Catholic:

John 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

You see, we understand that you belong to Christ too despite that you are not in the same pen as the Catholic sheep. And that is also stated in our Catechism. And we also love those Christian sheep.

Really?

I believe you are very mistaken about this Selene.

Persons who are NOT Catholic and who do not submit to the Catholic Church, despite knowing what she is about, CANNOT be saved!

I quote from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (regretably I cannot provide a link on this forum to such I don't think but you can readily find it online - just Google parts of the quote below).

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?³³⁵ Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.³³⁶

If you want to go back to quotes from various Popes of the Middle Ages it's even more clear, abundantly and beyond doubt clear, that ANYONE who, despite knowing about the Catholic Church, does not embrace her and follow her CANNOT be saved!

If anyone can be saved outside the Catholic Church and it's Sacraments, I refer to people who know what the Catholic Church is about and refuse her and NOT to people who are otherwise ignorant of such which the Catholic Church deals with differently, then...why is the Catholic Church even necessary at all?

To say that non-Catholics of the kind I describe above can be saved and are members of God's household is to say the Catholic Church and her Sacraments are utterly useless!

Many Catholics are not even aware of the Church's teachings on these things and go around promulgating all kinds of baloney that sounds great but which in fact does not even line up with official Catholic teaching.

Carlos

[ncn]

Catholicism is actually growing especially in the continents of Asia and Africa - countries that are predominantly pagan. You conquer more with love and mercy rather than with the sword.

But then so are Jehovah witnesses and Mormons, they don't conquer with the sword but with word of mouth.

Are they The Truth and The Light?

Growth in numbers does not necessarily mean truth!

Why should I worry about the Jehovah witnesses and Mormons? Truth will always prevail, no matter what. According to Statistics, the number of Jehovah Witnesses have decreased. According to the 2006 statistics, the Mormons in America have also decreased.

I was not referring to America be it for the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses and neither were you in the post that I quoted from you.

Yes, Truth will always prevail and that is why people are leaving the RCC in Europe and all over the world and being sucked up into false religious groups.

The reason is that they are not happy in their church but lack the bible skills and knowledge to define a true path of doctrine.

You see, when we don't know the doctrine we follow; all it takes is a knock on the door from a sales man and we buy into whatever they are selling.

[~candice~]

Folks, final warning not to turn this into a catholic apologetics thread. The topic is unity.

[ncn]

Catholicism is actually growing especially in the continents of Asia and Africa - countries that are predominantly pagan. You conquer more with love and mercy rather than with the sword.

But then so are Jehovah witnesses and Mormons, they don't conquer with the sword but with word of mouth.

Are they The Truth and The Light?

Growth in numbers does not necessarily mean truth!

Why should I worry about the Jehovah witnesses and Mormons? Truth will always prevail, no matter what. According to Statistics, the number of Jehovah Witnesses have decreased. According to the 2006 statistics, the Mormons in America have also decreased.

I was not referring to America be it for the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses and neither were you in the post that I quoted from you.

Yes, Truth will always prevail and that is why people are leaving the RCC in Europe and all over the world and being sucked up into false religious groups.

The reason is that they are not happy in their church but lack the bible skills and knowledge to define a true path of doctrine.

You see, when we don't know the doctrine we follow; all it takes is a knock on the door from a sales man and we buy into whatever they are selling.

Perhaps, you should see the statistics in the RCC.

There are more churches closed in Rome than open; one on every corner , believe me I lived there.

The RCC has desperately tried to break out across the globe in fertile land to boost their income after the Banca di Santo Spirito scandal.

They need to keep their funds flowing, the coffers were empty.

Me thinks you know very little about your church and that which you have gleaned is from Internet or false teaching.

A quote that jumps to mind, "

“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."

~Desmond Mpilo Tutu

[ncn]

Sorry Candice , I posted before your post please forgive me.

I know that what you say is right, I got caught up in it all.

[Steve_S]

This is pretty simple to me, there is one body:

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

I think that with regards to the issue of unity in and of itself, it's going to be incredibly difficult to obtain between "catholics and Christians," due to the SIGNIFICANT doctrinal disagreements between the two.

In saying this I'm going to reference Ephesians 4:11-15.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

If you look at 11 it tells us that people have been given gifts/appointed to offices. In 12-15 it tells us why those people were given those gifts/appointed to those offices. I could go line by line and delineate my opinion on what these mean, but I don't think that it's necessary as these are straight forward scriptures.

The reason I think to these scriptures when unity between the "catholics and Christians" is mentioned is that the doctrines between the two are so incredibly different that I believe it's Biblically impossible that the leaders from both sides are being spirit led simultaneously, so the evangelists, pastors, and teachers (4:11) from one of the two sides are incredibly wrong, I'd go so far as to say that it's apostate levels of errancy by one or the other. 4:12-15 tells us what the fruits of having the proper people in the proper positions within the body of Christ are. One can only assume that these fruits are incredibly difficult to impossible to achieve under apostate or near apostate teaching due to the incredible amount of discord that is going to be sewn between the two factions due to one being heretical and one being correct. So yes, I think that we should pray that the body of Christ is unified (this is a no brainer to me). However, I don't know that Biblical unity can be achieved between the "catholics and the Christians" due to the irreconcilable doctrinal gulf that exists between them.

As a disclaimer here I've tried to keep this post non-venomous, but to be up front I'm militantly opposed to a large portion of extra-Biblical catholic Dogma, though I know this thread is not here to focus on that, I'd feel deceitful if I didn't at least disclose that I was writing from that perspective.

[xero]

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Thats what Jesus says about peace on earth. I havent forgotten the inquisition:

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Catholicism has proven itself by its works. Dont blame me for telling the truth and say Im not loving or Christ like. I care enough to be honest even though I know it wont be well received.

My goodness! You make it sound as though the Inquisition is still happening today. You haven't forgotten it? So, where were you when Jesus taught you about love and forgiveness of the enemy.....since you obviously see Catholics as your enemy.

Im talking about catholicism not catholics. Ideologies not adherents. Its not my fault that people believe lies. Ive believed lots of lies like I love you or I wouldnt do anything to hurt you; you know, stuff people say when they want to manipulate you.

I believed in all sorts of magical creatures like santa claus and the easter bunny but I grew up became disillusioned and realised that if everyone can conspire about something as retarded as a man hopping down chimneys the rabbit hole must go much deeper.

I left nothing unscathed. The only man whom Ive studied from who made absolute sense is Jesus. Sorry but all the denominations Ive burned through are strawmen in a field of crow. Every institution of man is crooked. Life is that terrible.

All anyone needs from the Bible is the red lettering to perfect the work but in order to understand the ins an outs you have to go cover to cover several times and than several more.

While you study mens doctrines I found proof against them in the Bible. It pays to be faithful to one Master.

[Sevenseas]

Actually, I do know the true meaning of the First Commandment. Yes, you are correct, I deliberately left out the true meaning of the commandment, but it is not to make a case for myself. Remember.... I was never the one calling my Christian brothers "idol worshippers". I already made it clear that Catholics don't worship Mary and we worship only God. YET, regardless of what I already said, it was the Christian posters on this thread who put words in my mouth saying that we DO worship those statues. By doing this, they are claiming that they know my thoughts as a Catholic. All you had to do was read back through the posts. It was to THOSE Christian posters that my post was meant for.

Selene the only things I have responded to are what you wrote to me, so you know, maybe you should go back and read the posts,

but I don't like that kind of he said she said stuff. I generally keep pretty good track of responding and when I do goof, I admit it

It's not my intention to win something here.

I copy/pasted the meanings of the words veneration and respect to show you that the word veneration meant much more than respect

because you were stating (not to me ) that Catholics were only 'respecting' Mary etc. I know for a fact, whether or not you do, that

many Catholics pray to Mary and that's just wrong. Again, you need to understand why some people jump on and start accusing and

you also know that I did not do that, but I have this silly notion that if I am being honest other people will also be.

I already said that veneration means to show honor and respect. And then you posted this to me. Look what I placed in RED in YOUR defintion of veneration.

Veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek δουλεία, douleia), or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a saint: an angel, or a dead person who has been identified by a church committee as singular in the traditions of the religion. Philologically, to venerate derives from the Latin verb, venerare, meaning to regard with reverence and respect.

Within Christianity, veneration is practiced by groups such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic, and Eastern Catholic Churches. In some Christian denominations, veneration is shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint's icon, relics, or statue. The practice of veneration is deemed heretical by iconoclastic denominations.

In Islam, veneration of saints is one overt distinction between sects such as the Shi'a and "folklorist" Sufi^[1][2] which venerate saints, and other sects, such as Sunnis and Wahhabists, which abhor the practice^[3]

Respect gives a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem. Respect can be a specific feeling of regard for the actual qualities of the one respected (e.g., "I have great respect for her judgment"). It can also be conduct in accord with a specific ethic of respect. Rude conduct is usually considered to indicate a lack of respect, disrespect, whereas actions that honor somebody or something indicate respect. Specific ethics of respect are of fundamental importance to various cultures. Respect for tradition and legitimate authority is identified by Jonathan Haidt as one of five fundamental moral values shared to a greater or lesser degree by different societies and individuals.^[1]

The word "respect or honor" is ALREADY indicated in veneration. There is nothing in veneration that says anything about "worship." but YOU had to also define what respect means?????

And now here, you are telling me that "praying" to Mary or to the saints is wrong. Do you even know what "pray" means? It means to ASK or to implore. And if you look up the word "pray" in Dictionary.com, it actually means to ASK. According to Dictionary.com:

pray

   /preɪ/ [prey] object of worship).

2.

to offer (a prayer).

3.

to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.

4.

to make earnest petition to (a person).

5.

to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.

Synonyms:

4. importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore.

Look at the synonyms of pray. There is NOTHING in there that says to worship. Prayer is actually a form of communication. When a Catholic ask a saint in Heaven to pray for them, it is the SAME thing as you asking your friend to pray for you. Surely, you are not saying to your friend to worship you??? The Holy Bible instructs us to always pray for each other. Praying for each other is one way to show love for one another. For you, a Christian stops praying at death. For you, everything stops at death.

For Catholics, we know that a Christian can continue to pray even after death. Why? Because death cannot break the bonds of love we have for one another. Christ already conquered death. God is love and love is stronger than death. A Christian does not stop being a Christian when he/she dies. And when God instructs us to always pray for each other, that command does not stop at death.

ummm...you appear to have taken a decidedly argumentative and superior tone here and it is doing nothing for your posts

Mary was a human being chosen by God to bear the incarnated Word.....and while that is certainly a blessed occasion as indicated in the

words of the angel who visited her with the news, she is not God and never should we pray to another human being.

If my post offended you, I would guess it is because I hit the nail on the head and not because you imagine I do not know what the word

pray means.

What you seem to be upset about is not even in the Bible...it is engineered through the venerated human beings that are chosen by others

of the same ilk and they did not find their instructions in the Bible either.

I would never pray to another human being and I am sorry you believe this is the right thing to do because it is NOT even in the Bible.

Actually Selene, the more you are posting in response here, the more you are illustrating the very things that certain people wrote of,

albeit in an unkind manner, back at the beginning of this op

You believe your religion is superior and therefore I don't know what I am talking about.

There is only one thing a person needs to know. If it is not in the Bible and God did not tell us to do it, then if follows we should not be

doing it, don't need to do it or it may even be sinful.

For Catholics, we know that a Christian can continue to pray even after death. Why? Because death cannot break the bonds of love we have for one another. Christ already conquered death. God is love and love is stronger than death. A Christian does not stop being a Christian when he/she dies. And when God instructs us to always pray for each other, that command does not stop at death.

Well, that may be what your priest taught you but it is not what Christ taught.

For you, a Christian stops praying at death. For you, everything stops at death.

Well, when you can resurrect the dead to give them a second opportunity, then perhaps you will be on to something. In the meantime,

the Bible teaches we have one life, one death and an eternity to spend with or without God.

As I stated, you are illustrating the very objections to unity put forth by some when this op was begun. You have had ample

opportunity to address concerns and now you have reached a point where, unable to answer questions posed regarding the

extra-Biblical practices of the Catholic church, you are trying to sling some mud.

It's not working.

[Sevenseas]

Because we never brought this kind of attitude to the pagans, Catholicism is actually growing especially in the continents of Asia and Africa - countries that are predominantly pagan. You conquer more with love and mercy rather than with the sword. We only use the sword on the weeds that are already inside us.

That's just a silly response IMO. You are grasping at straws. I quote the words of Christ to the op and you say your attitude is better than

the verse I posted.

As another poster wrote:

A quote that jumps to mind, "

“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."

~Desmond Mpilo Tutu

At any rate, the history books are replete with the Catholic attitude and tortures that accompanied it.

You brought it up....you should be honest. I didn't even go there.

It might be wise to go back to the topic of unity as your defense of your faith is becoming very argumentative and is

NOT what the thread is about

You have taken the thread over and not for the better IMO