Was Jesus God?

[Sevenseas]

ninhao:black type

I don't know what you mean by 'always singular in meaning'?

I meant that the words the KJV translate as tempted and tempt in Luke 4 do not necessarily have the same meaning or application. The temptation satan applied to Jesus was to entice Him to sin and the temptation Jesus would not apply to God was not to entice God to sin.

OK ~ got it..I'm still a little confusededed by yr double negative regarding Jesus application of the word tempt?

I agree the words tempt and test can be applied in the same manner. The question is if they should be applied in the same manner in Luke 4. There is a debate on the application of tempt in this chapter which can be seen in several reputable translations as you would know.

Fair enough...but I think the conclusion...if one can be made...would be..not sure which word to use...enlightening...or improve understanding..or even helpful as there seems to have been negative connotations drawn from the use of the word as applied to what Jesus underwent...maybe I'm rambling LOL!

If you insist there is some kind of difference in the testing Jesus underwent, the only thing I can think of was that the purpose of His testing

was to remain sinless and yet still be able to understand the fraility of our flesh when we undergo tests, trials, temptations.

Yes this is my position. We can see in the scriptures the "inner" torment Jesus endure like in Gesthamane bless our dear Lord for this terrible time of suffering.

Mat 26:41-42 KJV Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. (42) He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

The Bible states we are drawn away and tempted by the things that are IN us...so, unless someone believes that Jesus had sin IN Him,

I do not see how He could be tempted from within...

May i request that you cease to refer to your discussions with Mike when responding to me. I have not fully considered everything in your discussions and would like to concentrate on ours.

No more...but but it is his posts in general in this thread...not just to me otherwise I would not have mentioned him, but won't again

I don't believe Jesus had sin "in him" in the same manner as the first Adam did not have sin "in him" until he succumbed. Do you believe the first Adam was born/created with sin "in him" ?

Now that's a very interesting question...never discussed this one before. Not even with myself LOL!...well, since Adam was not ever God or even 'a'

god, I would say, the logical answer would be that I quite possibly agree with what you say ... hmmm..I guess I would say that I believe the first Adam

certainly had the capacity to sin as he proved ...Adam was created......Jesus is the Son of God and was before as is God so I do not see how they

could be the same.........thinking out loud here.

I agree it is most important not to introduce our perceptions into bible teachings. I believe the bible is clear that Jesus came in the likeness of man yet was still God. I believe Jesus had no sin in Him in the same manner as the first Adam.

Interestingly, God said 'Let us make man in OUR image' so Jesus appeared in the image that was created I guess

Jesus also told us His Father was greater than He. This does not mean Jesus was any less God than God

Agreed!

It does show that Jesus put aside His position to fulfill the propitiatory requirements, to satisfy justice, and to show God's love for man.

Yes.

Heb 2:17 KJV Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Php 2:6-7 KJV Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[Sevenseas]

allofgrace:

Just to show this one passage which goes along with what you were saying at the end of your last post about Jesus and the Father, though here I would not use the word greatermyself. In one sense like the husband and wife God has ordained the man head of the family but it does not meant that one is superior over the other. Just like the Father will exalt the Jesus and Jesus desires that the Father be glorified in all that He does and the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to Himself but to the Lord that the Father be glorified in the Son. And at the end of all this the Son will hand the kingdoms of the world over to the Father as this verse says and is a subject all to itself which few people take notice of, but pay special attention to Rev 11:15 in addition to this:

1 Cor 15:26-28 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

ninhao was referring to scripture when he quotes Jesus as saying greater:

You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father,

for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

[saved34]

Surely our Lord Jesus Christ is God, second person in the trinity. Before his incarnation scripture says he was the Word, with God(the Father) and was very God himself. The confusion on the whole matter is the humbling of himself and becoming a real man, which is when he received the name Jesus. He in essence, took a lower place and made his abode with us,(Mankind) he became poor, emptying himself of his former glory as God, creator of all things for our sake's. Our Lord took on an entirely new experience, stepping out of eternity and into our finite existence. He was born of a woman and took upon him the likeness of sinful flesh (not sinful flesh, for sin cannot touch him), being found as a man he can rightfully say the "Father is greater than I". The Father in his natural essence cannot be hungry, he cannot die, he has no human weaknesses. In Christ, God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is able to connect to man, God is able to reveal his true nature of how he is, and how tender and loving he is to man.

Christ is the exact representation of the Eternal Father in human form. Scripture goes so far as to call Christ "Emanuel" (God with us). As the eternal Word it is nothing for Christ to be equal with God the Father. The Father has declared of the Son, that he is God, and that his throne is forever.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Christ in taking his place with us as a real man, voluntarily submitted himself to the Father for our sake's, and the prince of life went even to death because he loved us. He took on flesh for this very reason, and because he took on flesh, he is automatically inferior to the Father (God bless him forever), but the Father has bestowed on the man Jesus, the same honor that he had as God from the beginning. Now Christ's glory is even greater, because there is now a man seated in Heaven, at the right hand of God the Father. Christ is king of king, and Lord of all, and he has now elevated mankind to a position which would have been impossible under Adam. All of us who place our trust in Christ now have eternal life, and an inheritance of all things because of the sacrifice of Christ.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering

The humanity of Christ is of the utmost importance to us as sinful men, without him sacrificing his position as God, we could not be saved. It was his mission because he loves us, and the Father loves us. His Godhood is all throughout scripture, but his humanity is our real blessing because he identifies with us, and he has revealed the REAL nature of God to us. Look how tenderly he interacted with the dregs of society, look how patient he was, how lovely this man was. That is who God is. Scripture puts it perfectly:

Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Joh 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Joh 14:8 Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

Joh 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

[Guest ninhao]

OK ~ got it..I'm still a little confusededed by yr double negative regarding Jesus application of the word tempt?

Yes my wording is feeble and confusing I agree. May I attempt to explain clearer.

satan enticed Jesus to commit sin by testing God's ability to protect and save.( You shall not tempt God eg. Dueteronomy 6:16). The "tempt" in Deuteronomy 6 was "testing" God's ability to provide for or protect the Israelites ( as they did in Massah). If Jesus had thrown Himself off the temple, as satan urged, and if God had saved Jesus in this test God would not have been sinning. Jesus didn't do this, of course, hence my use of the negatives. My apologies.

satan tempted Jesus to sin by testing God.

Now that's a very interesting question...never discussed this one before. Not even with myself LOL!...well, since Adam was not ever God or even 'a'

god, I would say, the logical answer would be that I quite possibly agree with what you say ... hmmm..I guess I would say that I believe the first Adam

certainly had the capacity to sin as he proved ...Adam was created......Jesus is the Son of God and was before as is God so I do not see how they

could be the same.........thinking out loud here.

I believe the first Adam and Jesus were born with no sin "in them". Interestingly if we believe Ezekiel 28:15 refers to satan then he also had no sin "in him" until he succumbed.

Interestingly, God said 'Let us make man in OUR image' so Jesus appeared in the image that was created I guess

Ok

[Joshua-777]

^{Hebrews 3:3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.}

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

[Littlelambseativy]

We have no other accurate source for this answer than Jesus Himself -

John 8:58

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Since the Father is called "I AM" I would say that Jesus is God.

With regard to the tempting. Jesus was tempted immediately after the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism in the Jordan. Though weakened by a lack of food, those who have fasted for even 21 days find strength through the Word

of God. Jesus who had the Holy Spirit to help Him though tested/ tempted did not give in to the temptation.

[other one]

We have no other accurate source for this answer than Jesus Himself -

John 8:58

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Since the Father is called "I AM" I would say that Jesus is God.

With regard to the tempting. Jesus was tempted immediately after the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism in the Jordan. Though weakened by a lack of food, those who have fasted for even 21 days find strength through the Word

of God. Jesus who had the Holy Spirit to help Him though tested/ tempted did not give in to the temptation.

In Exodus we are told that Moses, Aaron and 72 other people went up and saw the God of Israel......... Jesus tell us that no man has ever seen the Father, so the Father can not be the entity Moses knew as God.......... Yahweh was Jesus himself when he was in the form of God as the Book of John explains.

[saved34]

We have no other accurate source for this answer than Jesus Himself -

John 8:58

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Since the Father is called "I AM" I would say that Jesus is God.

With regard to the tempting. Jesus was tempted immediately after the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism in the Jordan. Though weakened by a lack of food, those who have fasted for even 21 days find strength through the Word

of God. Jesus who had the Holy Spirit to help Him though tested/ tempted did not give in to the temptation.

In Exodus we are told that Moses, Aaron and 72 other people went up and saw the God of Israel......... Jesus tell us that no man has ever seen the Father, so the Father can not be the entity Moses knew as God.......... Yahweh was Jesus himself when he was in the form of God as the Book of John explains.

That doesn't quite mean what you think it means, Other one. t least not in the purely mechanical interpretation of that verse. No man has ever seen God in his true form or essence. God showed himself to man in different ways or Theophanies , but never plain and outright. He showed Moses and Israel his back. He came down in the form of an Angel and Talked with Abraham, etc, etc.

Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Exo 33:21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;

Exo 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.

Exo 33:23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

You cannot separate the Father and Son as if Christ was a different God, and the Father was another God. There is only One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). No man has ever seen God in the sense that until Christ came and took his place among us as a man, we did not have the intimacy or relationship with God that is only found through the Lord Jesus Christ. "Christ said if you seen me, you have seen the Father". Scripture says:

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained him.

The sense is, no man has seen God (or understood God until the Son was sent to this earth to fully flesh him out.) Christ is very Jehovah God, creator of all things, equal with the Father, but he voluntarily took on the form of a servant and went into death for our sake. He was not and is not a lesser God than the Father.

Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

The Apostle John saw the Father in Revelation. Or at least a glimpse of his Glory. So it's not talking about simply seeing God.

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

Rev 4:3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

[other one]

We have no other accurate source for this answer than Jesus Himself -

John 8:58

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Since the Father is called "I AM" I would say that Jesus is God.

With regard to the tempting. Jesus was tempted immediately after the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism in the Jordan. Though weakened by a lack of food, those who have fasted for even 21 days find strength through the Word

of God. Jesus who had the Holy Spirit to help Him though tested/ tempted did not give in to the temptation.

In Exodus we are told that Moses, Aaron and 72 other people went up and saw the God of Israel......... Jesus tell us that no man has ever seen the Father, so the Father can not be the entity Moses knew as God.......... Yahweh was Jesus himself when he was in the form of God as the Book of John explains.

That doesn't quite mean what you think it means, Other one. t least not in the purely mechanical interpretation of that verse. No man has ever seen God in his true form or essence. God showed himself to man in different ways or Theophanies , but never plain and outright. He showed Moses and Israel his back. He came down in the form of an Angel and Talked with Abraham, etc, etc.

Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Exo 33:21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;

Exo 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.

Exo 33:23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

You cannot separate the Father and Son as if Christ was a different God, and the Father was another God. There is only One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). No man has ever seen God in the sense that until Christ came and took his place among us as a man, we did not have the intimacy or relationship with God that is only found through the Lord Jesus Christ. "Christ said if you seen me, you have seen the Father". Scripture says:

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained him.

The sense is, no man has seen God (or understood God until the Son was sent to this earth to fully flesh him out.) Christ is very Jehovah God, creator of all things, equal with the Father, but he voluntarily took on the form of a servant and went into death for our sake. He was not and is not a lesser God than the Father.

Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

The Apostle John saw the Father in Revelation. Or at least a glimpse of his Glory. So it's not talking about simply seeing God.

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

Rev 4:3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

Actually I think the Bible is very explicit in who saw what:

Ex 24:9-11

9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.

NASB

They went up and thay saw the God of Israel....... made a note that He did not stretch out his hand against them, so they must have expected God to harm them, then they note that they beheld God and they ate and drank letting us understand that they were their physically and it was not a vision.

I think the Bible is very clear that 74 People saw the God of Israel, spoke of things under His feet so it wasn't a burning bush........ and it was not the Father.

Jesus came into this world to make it possible for us not to go to hell, and also introduce us to the trinity. I do not think personally that Moses understood the triune nature of our God. I do believe that he (Moses) only understood what Jesus was when he was in the God form.

[Littlelambseativy]

How do you rationalize the following passage in Exodus when God said-

Exodus 33:20

New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁰ But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

That is why so many times men saw the back of God or His glory but they could not look upon His face. When the patriarchs say they saw God they saw Jesus the Word but not the Father whose face no man could look upon.