The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Salty]

Sorry, NO METAPHOR!

 

 

Why do you think these verses are meant to be spiritualized? Why not just believe them as written? There will come little beasties that will sting like scorpions, exceedingly painful! It is JUDGMENT. These things will happen because God wants them to happen. They come as punishment for sin and rejection of Jesus Christ. Too bad, but even those believers who are left behind will be punished. ONLY those 144,000 will be free from these stings.

 

It is NOT written that these little beasties that sting will kill a third of mankind. That is a DIFFERENT judgment. When the 6th trumpet comes, 1/3 of the people will die PHYSICALLY.  Did you not read how during the Day of the Lord God will destroy the world and the sinners IN the world? Killing 1/3 in one judgment is a good beginning.

 

It is NOT the "tribulation time" that is shortened. OF COURSE the 70th week will still be 1260 days plus 1260 days long. That is "written in stone," so to speak and will not be changed. What will be changed? During the last half of the 70th week, there will be DAYS of great tribulation. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that will be shortened. In other words, even though the Beast will be given his 42 months of authority, he will not be able to continue the days of Great Tribulation for the entire 42 months. Once God pours out the vials of His wrath, the Beast will be rendered HELPLESS - so no more days of great tribulation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Firstly, those events are NOT... "day of The Lord" timing. The "day of The Lord" timing is with the events of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period, the great earthquake, etc., as per Rev.11.

 

Secondly, the locusts in the first part of the chapter is that locust army that has power in their mouths, and their 'tails'. The 'tails' refers back up to the first part of the chapter about the scorpion tail.

 

Thirdly, it most definitely is... a metaphor for a group of certain men that will work like real locusts do, which is why... we were told they have "the faces of men" in the first part of that chapter. God doesn't do monsters, nor Hollywood. He used these metaphors back in the Book of Joel, which goes with this Rev.9 study. And back in Joel He told us these locusts are "a nation" (Joel 1).

 

When our Heavenly Father 'explains' symbols in His Word, it means He is teaching using symbology and metaphor. So I have definitely done no such "spiritualizing" away of the Rev.9 events like you say. I'm well aware of how some don't know how to handle God's Word when they come to His symbols and metaphorical type teachings, and they often mistake symbology as literal and a literal meaning for symbolic.

[iamlamad]

Lamad maybe you can tell me which resurrection the church will be raptured with.  

 

 

Fair enough: it will be the very resurrection spoken of by Paul in 1 Thes. 4.  Paul writes that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those alive are caught up. Paul really does not tell us how much time will take place between the two, but my guess is micro or Pico seconds.

 

Of course, just as Jesus' own resurrection was  a part of the PRIMARY or CHIEF or FIRST resurrection in Rev. 20, so the dead in Christ raptured will be the second wave of the first resurrection. When the Old Tesatament saints rise at the 7th vial, they will be the third wave of this chiefest of resurrections.

 

Note: there are only two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust or sinner.  These two do not happen at the same time; the resurrection of the unjust will take place over a 1000 years after the first resurrection. Neither does the chief resurrection for the just happen all at the same time, for Jesus was a part of the first or chief resurrection.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Sorry, NO METAPHOR!

 

 

Why do you think these verses are meant to be spiritualized? Why not just believe them as written? There will come little beasties that will sting like scorpions, exceedingly painful! It is JUDGMENT. These things will happen because God wants them to happen. They come as punishment for sin and rejection of Jesus Christ. Too bad, but even those believers who are left behind will be punished. ONLY those 144,000 will be free from these stings.

 

It is NOT written that these little beasties that sting will kill a third of mankind. That is a DIFFERENT judgment. When the 6th trumpet comes, 1/3 of the people will die PHYSICALLY.  Did you not read how during the Day of the Lord God will destroy the world and the sinners IN the world? Killing 1/3 in one judgment is a good beginning.

 

It is NOT the "tribulation time" that is shortened. OF COURSE the 70th week will still be 1260 days plus 1260 days long. That is "written in stone," so to speak and will not be changed. What will be changed? During the last half of the 70th week, there will be DAYS of great tribulation. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that will be shortened. In other words, even though the Beast will be given his 42 months of authority, he will not be able to continue the days of Great Tribulation for the entire 42 months. Once God pours out the vials of His wrath, the Beast will be rendered HELPLESS - so no more days of great tribulation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Firstly, those events are NOT... "day of The Lord" timing. The "day of The Lord" timing is with the events of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period, the great earthquake, etc., as per Rev.11.

 

Secondly, the locusts in the first part of the chapter is that locust army that has power in their mouths, and their 'tails'. The 'tails' refers back up to the first part of the chapter about the scorpion tail.

 

Thirdly, it most definitely is... a metaphor for a group of certain men that will work like real locusts do, which is why... we were told they have "the faces of men" in the first part of that chapter. God doesn't do monsters, nor Hollywood. He used these metaphors back in the Book of Joel, which goes with this Rev.9 study. And back in Joel He told us these locusts are "a nation" (Joel 1).

 

When our Heavenly Father 'explains' symbols in His Word, it means He is teaching using symbology and metaphor. So I have definitely done no such "spiritualizing" away of the Rev.9 events like you say. I'm well aware of how some don't know how to handle God's Word when they come to His symbols and metaphorical type teachings, and they often mistake symbology as literal and a literal meaning for symbolic.

 

Sorry but your theory is MYTH. Where does John first mention the day of the Lord? Of course at the 6th seal events. Do you just not believe John?

 

Did you study Isaiah 2 and the great earthquake spoken of there? Isaiah two mentions the day of the Lord with this earthquake. Some of what John wrote is almost word for word out of Isaiah 2. Without a doubt these two were writing of the very same earthquake which will be a SIGN for the start of the Day of the Lord. Then in Joel 2 he writes that the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and these events too happen at the 6th seal.

 

It should be plain then, that the DAY begins right where John writes it: at the end of the 6th seal.

 

For further proof, we see that the first trumpet judgment fulfills Joel 1, where the cattle are "perplexed" because they have no pasture; the fire has devoured all the grass. We see the fulfillment of this at the very first trumpet judgment. It is then VERY CLEAR that the Day of the Lord begins with the 7th seal and 30 minutes of silence. What better way for God to start the destruction of the earth - and the sinners in the earth.

 

Why would you choose chapter 11, a MIDPOINT chapter, as the start of the Day of the Lord when there is simply no mention of it there? Again I refer you back to chapter 6 where John TELLS US the Day of His wrath has come. Why come up with something else when John TELLS US? Do you find it difficult to just believe what John wrote? Again why choose chapter 11 when Old Testament scriptures of the Day point to the 6th seal and the trumpet judgments?

 

 

I will agree, THIS is a metaphor:  "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" It was his deception that caused 1/3 of the angels to revolt against God. However, this use of the word "tail" here has nothing to do with the tail of the locusts. MANY insects have stings in their tails.

 

There can be little doubt that in the time of Joel, REAL LOCUSTS came as judgment. Joel forwarned them. But the prophecy of the locusts was yet a double prophecy for the coming of the armies of King Nebuchadnezzar. It is not hard to imagine that a huge army must eat, and so they take all the surrounding crops for themselves.

 

Next, John tells us these locusts came out of the bottomless pit. In other words, they have never been seen before. They have been waiting for a certain time. They cannot refer to men, for no man will ever escape from the bottomless pit. I think it is wise to just believe what John wrote.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 10, 2014 by iamlamad

[ENOCH2010]

Lamad  my Bible says only 2 resurrections of a massive group remain, the first resurrection ( at the second coming), and the resurrection for the great white thrown(after the 1000 year reign). There is no mention of a resurrection for a pre-trib rapture. That is one big nail in the coffin for the pre-trib doctrine.

[Floatingaxe]

Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

 

1. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mount of Olives.

 

2. At the time of the Rapture, the Mount of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

 

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

 

4. At the time of the Rapture, the world is not judged for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is judged by the King of kings.

 

5. The translation of the Church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation—the end of all travail, forever.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

7. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

 

8. The Rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

 

9. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the Church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

 

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

[ENOCH2010]

floating ax # 10 should be a clue for you that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a man made doctrine. No pre-trib resurrection, ergo no pre-trib rapture. For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ will rise first they we which are alive and remain will be called up to join them in the air. Sounds like a resurrection to me, and it happens at the second coming.

[Floatingaxe]

floating ax # 10 should be a clue for you that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a man made doctrine. No pre-trib resurrection, ergo no pre-trib rapture. For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ will rise first they we which are alive and remain will be called up to join them in the air. Sounds like a resurrection to me, and it happens at the second coming.

 

Yep, it's the first resurrection and it happens before the second coming of Christ, where we ride with Him.

[Marilyn C]

Very good Floatingaxe,

 

You did well with that comparison. I would also say that at our gathering unto Him only the Body of Christ will see Him, whereas at the second coming of Christ to the earth every eye will see HIm.

 

ENOCH2010,

 

The words `first resurrection,` refers to the type of resurrection - as to life, while the second `type` of resurrection refers to being resurrected to judgment at the great white throne. That is why some in the Body of Christ will resurrected to life, & others changed & caught up. Then later on those who were beheaded in the tribulation for the word of God have part in the first (type of) resurrection - to life.

 

Hope that helps, Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

floating ax # 10 should be a clue for you that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a man made doctrine. No pre-trib resurrection, ergo no pre-trib rapture. For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ will rise first they we which are alive and remain will be called up to join them in the air. Sounds like a resurrection to me, and it happens at the second coming.

Of course when the dead in Christ rise, it is a resurrection...and it will certainly be a part of the most honorable or chief of resurrections. NO ONE should want to be a part of the only other resurrection mentioned, which will be a thousand years later, for that resurrection is for the unjust.

 

Since there are only TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unjust, let's rehearse:

 

JESUS was the first to rise from the dead with a resurrection body, so He was the number 1 (first) to rise in the most honorable or chief resurrection.

 

The dead in Christ will be the second wave. Jesus was the FIRSTFRUITS or number 1, then the dead in Christ will come next. About 7 years after the dead in Christ rise, then the Old Testament saints will rise. ALL of these will be a part of this most honorable and chief of resurrections.

 

This is the truth of scripture.  Perhaps you should do a word study on the Greek that was translated into "first."

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Lamad  my Bible says only 2 resurrections of a massive group remain, the first resurrection ( at the second coming), and the resurrection for the great white thrown(after the 1000 year reign). There is no mention of a resurrection for a pre-trib rapture. That is one big nail in the coffin for the pre-trib doctrine.

You have preconceived glasses on that prevent you from reading properly. There are only TWO resurrections: the first or most noble or most honorable or chiefest of resurrections will be for the JUSTIFIED or righteous. The next one will be for the unjust and sinner. Therefore simply logic tells us that all the righteous will be a part of the most honorable resurrection. So who was the first to be raised with a resurrection body? That would be Jesus Christ as the FIRSTfruits. That would have been around 32 AD....nearly 2000 years ago. This is a HUGE, humongous nail in the coffin of posttrib doctrine.

 

So the TRUTH is, there will be several waves of the righteous resurrections, which started with Jesus and will end with the Old Testament saints.

 

Now for another nail in the postrib coffin:  if your theory was right, NO member of the BRIDE OF CHRIST would make it to the marriage and supper. Another humonguous nail.

 

Posttribbers must CHANGE THE MEANING of words, and say that the marriage and supper will be AFTER Jesus gets on His white horse and descends. John, however tells us he marriage and supper will be in heaven BEFORE Jesus gets on His horse. In fact, many people now who have been allowed to go to heaven and come back to tell about it, have SEEN the preparations for this great supper in heaven. They tell us the tables are spread, and everything is ready. The tables go on for as far as the eye can see. Each place at the table has a NAME with it. God already knows who will be there.

 

Since everything we get from heaven we get by FAITH, posttribbers will not make it to this wedding as a member of the Bride of Christ. They will not be watching for His coming FOR His bride, and will be left behind. Without FAITH it is impossible to please Him. He will be coming pretrib FOR those who have FAITH in His coming and are WATCHING for Him. Posttribbers will be expecting to see the BEAST first. How could anyone have the God kind of faith for His coming pretrib when they cannot even believe it? Perhaps you should read the "left behind" series again. At least you should camp out on Luke 21:36 and BELIEVE it.

 

LAMAD