Fez Posted April 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted April 1, 2014 wow, i had totally missed that last line. i was too enamored with the line that christians don't take PLEASURE in violence. i need to go edit out that part in my quote. and Taker, i think you misunderstood something. nobody, even scripture, advocates violence for the sake of protecting "peace". protecting your family, or the innocent, or the defenseless, from senseless harm at the hands of someone who IS taking pleasure in violence is a whole different thing than "peace-keeping", which is something that can be twisted and used to suit anyone's agenda. think holocaust. hitler and company were slaughtering millions of innocent people, an entire race of people, in the name of "peace-keeping", although it was the "peace-keepers" doing all the vioence. There you have it! As a Christian you should not be thinking about the justification of violence for one simple reason. Love. Jesus teaches us to love first. Do we have that right yet? Can we talk about justifying violence when we don't know or understand how to love as Jesus would have us do? And one more thing. Self preservation is an overriding force. There is no time to justify self protection when you are faced with an immediate situation. Can violence be justified? No, never, because violence suggests premeditation and an overwhelming of self with rage. Self preservation and protecting others are not rooted in violence, they are founded on survival, duty and Love. There lies the difference between sufficient force to achieve a justified end, and violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted April 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted April 1, 2014 wow, i had totally missed that last line. i was too enamored with the line that christians don't take PLEASURE in violence. i need to go edit out that part in my quote. and Taker, i think you misunderstood something. nobody, even scripture, advocates violence for the sake of protecting "peace". protecting your family, or the innocent, or the defenseless, from senseless harm at the hands of someone who IS taking pleasure in violence is a whole different thing than "peace-keeping", which is something that can be twisted and used to suit anyone's agenda. think holocaust. hitler and company were slaughtering millions of innocent people, an entire race of people, in the name of "peace-keeping", although it was the "peace-keepers" doing all the vioence. There you have it! As a Christian you should not be thinking about the justification of violence for one simple reason. Love. Jesus teaches us to love first. Do we have that right yet? Can we talk about justifying violence when we don't know or understand how to love as Jesus would have us do? And one more thing. Self preservation is an overriding force. There is no time to justify self protection when you are faced with an immediate situation. Can violence be justified? No, never, because violence suggests premeditation and an overwhelming of self with rage. Self preservation and protecting others are not rooted in violence, they are founded on survival, duty and Love. There lies the difference between sufficient force to achieve a justified end, and violence. I agree with you, but it's just semantics. When I first started reading this thread I was defining violence (as I believe the OP did) to mean physical force of any kind which may result in people getting hurt. You're defining violence as unnecessary force, and your definition is more accurate. I do believe that the OP was actually meaning to ask, are Christians allowed to fight (physically)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1x1is1 Posted April 1, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,146 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 732 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1950 Share Posted April 1, 2014 right lady, a lot has been said in the name of peace. Protecting the innocent yes, peace not necessarily-Hitler wanted to kill the jews, but many protected the jews via various methods including sneaking them out of harms way, and yes, even violence. But a Christian should not seek it out nor take pleasure in it. That is what seperates us from them-violent men take pleasure in violence, and use violence to get what they want-just men, only use violence as a last resort and do not take pleasure in it. There is a huge difference between being willing to use violence when necessary-and wanting to use it. Patriot..... I agree with all that you have said in here. Even with your agreeing with the other posts. I learn a lot in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atwood Posted April 1, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 285 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2014 Luke 22 "35 And He said to them, When I sent you forth without purse and wallet and shoes, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing. 36 And he said to them, But now, he who has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he who has none; let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword." ----------- Proverbs 25:26; "As a troubled fountain and a corrupted spring, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted April 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,816 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2014 Blessings Everyone... I totally agree with Fez & he said it perfectly!Violence can never be justified because as Fez stated it suggests a premeditation & an overwhelming of self with rage.......a righteous wrath & the immediate response to protect another person from harm is so much different than violence.Violence,anger,rage are not fruits of the Spirit but love is & to put your own life on the line to protect another is an act of love,it is selfless.......and of course self preservation also,is not an act of violence but a justifiable action one would be forced to take as our lives are a precious gift from God. As far as war is concerned,I don't even know how to answer that,I do believe we have to protect our country but it just saddens me when so many lives are lost..................wars & battles are violent & nothing can really justify whoever starts it,I suppose.......(again,protect,preserve,forced) With love in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,705 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,522 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted April 2, 2014 actually, I would disagree with fez, because sometimes even premeditation is necessary. Lets bring up a scenario. Lets say your a cop, and your a Christian. You get a phone call that this guy is beating his wife. Now, you know if you show up theres a good chance he will be violent with you and you will have to meet him with violence of your own. You know that going in, that is pre-meditation by fezs definition, yet I would call it justified-you know that woman needs to be protected from her husband. Another angle to look at, what happens if our actions bring about violence? lets say your the neighbor of that guy whos beating his wife-you know if the cops show up hes likely going to shoot at them and them at him-you know if you call the cops, violence will continue and get worse-are you justified to call the cops knowing that the outcome is likely going to be bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almightyist Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 112 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2014 Love always protects.... I enjoy peace and tranquility. I do not like violence... I don't even like punishing my loved ones. But as a Child of God...there is a rage....that comes to the front if there is a threat to my loved ones. I will do what I have to do to protect my loved ones and my peace and tranquility. The difference between a child of satan and a Child of God, we don't take pleasure in violence and doing violence to the innocent. But we're not afraid to use violence on the guilty scum that wish harm on our families. Matthew 13:49-50 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. we can do whatever violent acts we want to the wicked and the guilty. Throwing them into a burning furnace is an option. I disagree. I think that's going a bit too far. How do you know that they are wicked and guilty for starters?The same way the angels know. Love always protects.... I enjoy peace and tranquility. I do not like violence... I don't even like punishing my loved ones. But as a Child of God...there is a rage....that comes to the front if there is a threat to my loved ones. I will do what I have to do to protect my loved ones and my peace and tranquility. The difference between a child of satan and a Child of God, we don't take pleasure in violence and doing violence to the innocent. But we're not afraid to use violence on the guilty scum that wish harm on our families. Matthew 13:49-50 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. we can do whatever violent acts we want to the wicked and the guilty. Throwing them into a burning furnace is an option. I'm with you up until your last line. No, my friend, we CANNOT do whatever violence we want to those we deem wicked and guilty. That would require us to be perfect and able to judge another's heart.....only ONE can do those things, only ONE sits in judgment of mankind and it isn't you or me. Then why the angels doing it... 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! If angels r throwing wickedness and evil into a furnace...is Jesus incapable of telling us to get rid of evil and wickedness... U do what u gotta do... Jesus has me living in safe environment.....so far so good...I hope wicked and evil humans stay away...but if they slip on to the property and do or try to do ungodly things to my family...Jesus will instruct me what to do to them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,705 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,522 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted April 2, 2014 almighty, that is an extreme twist of scripture. The angels will come and separate the wicked-but theyre not the ones who decide who is wicked, only God does that. God is the judge not the angels. Its not the angels job to judge nor is it yours. Sayings its ok to kill those who do not believe-that's not Biblical, that's not Christian-in fact, I can think of one religion that preaches that-islam. We are called to love the wicked, its not our job to cast them out its not our job to kill them. period. We are called to go forth and make disciples of all the nations, to baptize them, to teach them about Christ, THAT is what we are to do. (matthew 28:16-20) we are called to love our enemies (matthew 5:44) and to pray for them. Killing them just because theyre not a Christian? that's not Christian, nor is it remotely biblical. Think about it. you wernt always a Christian, so by your standard someone should have killed you before you came to Christ. In fact, we all should have been killed before coming to Christ-for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) that's all, as in everyone, as in you, as in me. And the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23a) So, realistically your right-WE ALL deserve death, you, me, billy graham, mother Theresa, all of us. But, arnt we glad that Romans 6:23 doesn't end at the wages of sin is death-it goes on to say that the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. It is a free gift. We don't deserve it, we deserve to be killed, to die, but we were given a free gift-and it is our responsibility, to tell everyone about this gift-even those that we deem "wicked" because, in Gods eyes we are all wicked. Its not our place to send people to judgement, that's not our role. Come judgement time, it still wont-God will do the judging the angels will do the separating, NEITHER is our job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,816 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2014 Blessings Pat... I don't picture the scenario you painted the same way you see it,police officers do not go with the premeditated thoughts of viol....they are not trained to be violent,angry or put any personal emotion in what they are confronted with ,,,if the dispatcher sent out the call as domestic violence with possible firearm then they are "prepared" for what may await their arrival.....their first attempt is always to try to diffuse a situation & they would not storm the place with guns blazing,they would send several team,use a loudspeaker & most likely a negotiator....deadly physical force is used when necessary & there is no other alternative......if the perp was unarmed then the idea is to apprehend him and arrest him,not have a fight As far as the neighbor is concerned,his best action is to call the police for the simple fact that they are trained to handle these type of situations with the main objective being that no one gets shot & no lives are lost...................After college & a career change I went to Police Academy & was Mounted Police Officer for the City of New York(very long story for a very short career),,,it was just about horses really-lol With love,in Christ -Kwik And "Amen",Pat.....good answer ,we all did deserve death but thank God for Jesus,& ONLY GOD SHALL PASS JUDGEMENT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted April 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yes, you can defend yourself, always. Otherwise, why didn't Jesus let Himself be murdered countless times when they sought His life? Why didn't the disciples, either the 70 or the 12? Why didn't Paul? The phrase turn the other cheek also refers to accepting insults, and it only applies when you are preaching. See Ecclesiastes 3 also. The Devil would like it if you sat there and let yourself get beaten or killed, that's what he gets up for in the morning. As Patriot pointed out to, if you are in the marriage covenant, then you are under direct obligation to God to physically protect your wife to any cost (including the life of any fool trying to attack her), and conversely, you must destroy anyone trying to attack you, for otherwise you again violate your marriage covenant, for then you rob your wife of you. Same with your children. As always, plead the blood of Jesus, and trust in and declare God's promises of protection in Psalm 91, 103, 23 etc. Jesus didnt kill those seeking to kill Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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