Revelation 13

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

Scripture and verse for this? Or did you just pull it out of your hat? It reads like nonsense, not scripture.

 

oh! Perhaps you are reading prophecy as if it had already happened?

 

LAMAD

 

Actually there are many passages and concepts to be understood to get to that point.  I would go into detail if I thought there was a willingness to hear it rather than it just being used as fodder for insults.  The gist is:

• The evil angel (beast from the sea) comes up out of the abyss and forms a multinational government (feet of iron and clay)
• He uses that government, and the 10 leaders to set up the infrastructure for the mark
• The 10 leaders (there's only one set of 10 leaders) start their reign by destroying the world's capital (Babylon).  They impose their authority by economic control and probably plan to reign for a long time but....
• The false prophet hijacks their system right away, limiting their time as kings to about an hour.
• The ten leaders realize they've been had...three of them decide to do something about it and come against the false prophet with an overwhelming military force (mortally wounded head, certain death to his kingdom) but wait...
• The false prophet is empowered by the evil angel, who has also received Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  He calls fire down from heaven and wipes out the forces brought to bear against him.  The mortal wound is healed.  Peace is restored. The world is amazed.
• Thus begins the false prophet's authority to act (with signs and wonders) for 42 months.

Go ahead and call in nonsense if that makes you feel better but I can support all of those ideas with scripture and its what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

[Defending the Name]

Scripture has to be interpreted from John's time right up to she the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan emerges as the man of sin to destroy the seven hilled city (Christianity). To look and interpret scriptures through political events is to look through a straw.

God is concerned with worship and does not care about earthly kingdoms. God is calling you out of the earthly real to him, by worshipping him and supping with him. Babylon (first beast) and mystery Babylon (second beast) are thousands of years apart.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

Scripture and verse for this? Or did you just pull it out of your hat? It reads like nonsense, not scripture.

 

oh! Perhaps you are reading prophecy as if it had already happened?

 

LAMAD

 

Actually there are many passages and concepts to be understood to get to that point.  I would go into detail if I thought there was a willingness to hear it rather than it just being used as fodder for insults.  The gist is:

• The evil angel (beast from the sea) comes up out of the abyss and forms a multinational government (feet of iron and clay)
• He uses that government, and the 10 leaders to set up the infrastructure for the mark
• The 10 leaders (there's only one set of 10 leaders) start their reign by destroying the world's capital (Babylon).  They impose their authority by economic control and probably plan to reign for a long time but....
• The false prophet hijacks their system right away, limiting their time as kings to about an hour.
• The ten leaders realize they've been had...three of them decide to do something about it and come against the false prophet with an overwhelming military force (mortally wounded head, certain death to his kingdom) but wait...
• The false prophet is empowered by the evil angel, who has also received Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  He calls fire down from heaven and wipes out the forces brought to bear against him.  The mortal wound is healed.  Peace is restored. The world is amazed.
• Thus begins the false prophet's authority to act (with signs and wonders) for 42 months.

Go ahead and call in nonsense if that makes you feel better but I can support all of those ideas with scripture and its what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

Sorry, but at this point in time, if there were only one (ten,) there would now be only 7. Did you forget that the Beast or man of sin will take down three of the ten? That leaves 7. Does it not say that he becomes the 8th? This is why I say there is a DIFFERENT Ten that throw in with him at the end, to destroy Israel and Jerusalem.

 

You are right, I don't agree with much you wrote there.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Scripture has to be interpreted from John's time right up to she the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan emerges as the man of sin to destroy the seven hilled city (Christianity). To look and interpret scriptures through political events is to look through a straw.

God is concerned with worship and does not care about earthly kingdoms. God is calling you out of the earthly real to him, by worshipping him and supping with him. Babylon (first beast) and mystery Babylon (second beast) are thousands of years apart.

Satan as "the man of sin?" I thought a man was a man? I thought an angel was an angel and NEVER the twain shall meet - so to speak. Satan will NEVER become a man - he will only possess a man.

 

LAMAD

[Defending the Name]

Scripture has to be interpreted from John's time right up to she the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan emerges as the man of sin to destroy the seven hilled city (Christianity). To look and interpret scriptures through political events is to look through a straw.

God is concerned with worship and does not care about earthly kingdoms. God is calling you out of the earthly real to him, by worshipping him and supping with him. Babylon (first beast) and mystery Babylon (second beast) are thousands of years apart.

Satan as "the man of sin?" I thought a man was a man? I thought an angel was an angel and NEVER the twain shall meet - so to speak. Satan will NEVER become a man - he will only possgess a man.

LAMAD

Did the Holy Ghost become a man?

Yes, he is the Jesus of Nazareth.

Satan comes in flesh as the man of sin, the abomination that maketh desolate.

Isaiah 14:10

All they shall speak and say unto thee,

Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Defending the Name

[iamlamad]

 

 

Scripture has to be interpreted from John's time right up to she the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan emerges as the man of sin to destroy the seven hilled city (Christianity). To look and interpret scriptures through political events is to look through a straw.

God is concerned with worship and does not care about earthly kingdoms. God is calling you out of the earthly real to him, by worshipping him and supping with him. Babylon (first beast) and mystery Babylon (second beast) are thousands of years apart.

Satan as "the man of sin?" I thought a man was a man? I thought an angel was an angel and NEVER the twain shall meet - so to speak. Satan will NEVER become a man - he will only possgess a man.

LAMAD

Did the Holy Ghost become a man?

Yes, he is the Jesus of Nazareth.

Satan comes in flesh as the man of sin, the abomination that maketh desolate.

Isaiah 14:10

All they shall speak and say unto thee,

Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

 

No, the Holy Spirit did NOT become a man. The Holy Spirit decended upon the MAN when Jesus was baptized.

Jesus the MAN and the Holy Spirit are two different entities.

 

John 1

³² And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

 

This verse clearly shows the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be two separate identities.

 

HOWEVER, the Spirit and life IN the MAN was and is the SECOND person of the triune Godhead: the very one who spoke and said LET THERE BE LIGHT; and the very one who appeared to Abraham.

 

God is Spirit, God is soul and God is body. We are created in His image and after his likeness and WE are spirit, Soul and body. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit part of God. God the Father is the soul (the WILL) part of  God. God the Redeemer, (God the Son) is the body or visible part of God. It was the BODY part of God, the Redeemer from the Old Covenant, that came to earth to be born as a man. It was the Holy Spirit that descended upon Him [without measure] when He was baptized. God the Father stayed on the throne in heaven while Jesus and the Holy Spirit were on earth,

 

Satan and the man of sin are the same? FLAKY theory!

 

To demonstrate by scripture how flaky this doctrine is:

 

Rev 16

¹³ And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

Please note that the dragon, (who is Satan), the Beast (who is the man of sin possessed by Satan), and the false prophet are three SEPARATE identities.

 

LAMAD

[Defending the Name]

Scripture states that The Lord Jesus Christ was conceived of the Holy Ghost. Jesus of Nazareth was the Holy Spirit encased in a human body. The reason why Jesus said that he must go before the Holy Ghost can come is further evidence that the Holy Spirit became restricted in the presence of the Son of Man, the Christ, therefore his presence as the Son of Man had to go in order for him to come back again as the omnipresent Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost presented himself as a man and took on the form of his servants (Phillipians 2:5-8).

Matthew 1:18-20

18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

Scripture and verse for this? Or did you just pull it out of your hat? It reads like nonsense, not scripture.

 

oh! Perhaps you are reading prophecy as if it had already happened?

 

LAMAD

 

Actually there are many passages and concepts to be understood to get to that point.  I would go into detail if I thought there was a willingness to hear it rather than it just being used as fodder for insults.  The gist is:

• The evil angel (beast from the sea) comes up out of the abyss and forms a multinational government (feet of iron and clay)
• He uses that government, and the 10 leaders to set up the infrastructure for the mark
• The 10 leaders (there's only one set of 10 leaders) start their reign by destroying the world's capital (Babylon).  They impose their authority by economic control and probably plan to reign for a long time but....
• The false prophet hijacks their system right away, limiting their time as kings to about an hour.
• The ten leaders realize they've been had...three of them decide to do something about it and come against the false prophet with an overwhelming military force (mortally wounded head, certain death to his kingdom) but wait...
• The false prophet is empowered by the evil angel, who has also received Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  He calls fire down from heaven and wipes out the forces brought to bear against him.  The mortal wound is healed.  Peace is restored. The world is amazed.
• Thus begins the false prophet's authority to act (with signs and wonders) for 42 months.

Go ahead and call in nonsense if that makes you feel better but I can support all of those ideas with scripture and its what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

Sorry, but at this point in time, if there were only one (ten,) there would now be only 7. Did you forget that the Beast or man of sin will take down three of the ten? That leaves 7. Does it not say that he becomes the 8th? This is why I say there is a DIFFERENT Ten that throw in with him at the end, to destroy Israel and Jerusalem.

 

You are right, I don't agree with much you wrote there.

 

LAMAD

 

The 8th is in the context of the seven head in Rev 17:10-11.  Not the 10 horns.  Context.  Remember context?  There is one set of ten horns.

• The little horn in Daniel 7 that came up among the ten horns who became a large horn is the false prophet.  His change in size reflects his change in power status after he destroys the three rebel kings supernaturally.
• The ten horns as described in Rev 17 give their kingdom to the beast from the sea and reign with him for one hour.  The beast from the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, is a fallen angel, not the false prophet.

This is a good example of the importance of identifying who's who.  If you see the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 17) as being the same as the little horn turned big (Dan 7) then then, yes, there's a problem.  The answer is not in creating a new set of ten horns but in correctly identifying who is who.

 

I believe your "second set of 10 horns" arises from trying to resolve the apparent conflict in these two passages.

 

This is how I see it and why.  I'm not looking for people to agree with me.  I'm looking to make sense of prophetic scripture, not be dogmatic about it.  This is what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

That's falling back once again on your notion about our Lord Jesus not being able to 'enlarge the tent' (Isa.54) to include believers from all nations to the area of the holy lands of promise, and not just the house of Judah and house of Israel that are still scattered today.

 

 

Look this is one portion of the promise

 

Now look the second portion of the promise

 

Genesis 35:11-12 restates certain promises God had earlier made to Abraham:

 

I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land.

 

God here reiterates His promise to Abraham, as recorded in Genesis 17:5-6, that he would be a father of kings. God also tells Jacob that from him would descend not only a nation, but also a whole company of nations

 

Imagine where the OT saints would be if every time God told them He was going to do something they refused to believe Him just because their fleshy mind couldn't fathom how it could be. Imagine where we'd be if we simply refused to believe it possible that The Father raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

 

 

yes imagine that, those who refuse to believe God's promise of world wide dominance of the Israelites because their fleshy mind couldnt fathom how it can be

 

 

The "multitude of nations" prophecy is for this present world, not the time of God's future Kingdom.

 

I agree that nations will still exist in His future Kingdom, like the end of Isaiah 19 also reveals. And I believe His elect Gentile kings will reign over them. But Israel was to be a nation of priests, remember? That will manifest in His future Kingdom via His Church.

 

Does that mean all believers on Christ Jesus will overcome to be worthy of those kings and priests positions? No, I do not think so, but only for those who overcome in Him, remaining Faithful to the end, which is what the "first resurrection" is about. Then outside that area of the holy city, will begin the manifesting of the lands of the 12 tribes of Israel per the Ezek.47-48 layout. And there will a highway connecting Egypt, Israel, and Assyria, each as one third of His future Kingdom.

[Salty]

The 8th is in the context of the seven head in Rev 17:10-11.  Not the 10 horns.  Context.  Remember context?  There is one set of ten horns.

 

• The little horn in Daniel 7 that came up among the ten horns who became a large horn is the false prophet.  His change in size reflects his change in power status after he destroys the three rebel kings supernaturally.
• The ten horns as described in Rev 17 give their kingdom to the beast from the sea and reign with him for one hour.  The beast from the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, is a fallen angel, not the false prophet.

This is a good example of the importance of identifying who's who.  If you see the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 17) as being the same as the little horn turned big (Dan 7) then then, yes, there's a problem.  The answer is not in creating a new set of ten horns but in correctly identifying who is who.

 

I believe your "second set of 10 horns" arises from trying to resolve the apparent conflict in these two passages.

 

This is how I see it and why.  I'm not looking for people to agree with me.  I'm looking to make sense of prophetic scripture, not be dogmatic about it.  This is what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

 

The subject of the following verses are tied together; they are about a singular beast entity (2nd beast of Rev.13) and of the historical beast kings of history (Book of Daniel).

 

The Rev.17:9 verse is a subject change to the "seven heads" which are "seven mountains" upon which the woman sits, meaning a beast kingdom, not the beast king.

 

Rev.17

⁸ The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

Who ascends out of the bottomless pit? What kind of beast is that? It's not a kingdom, because the 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 we're shown comes up out of the "sea", put for peoples, nations, tongues, and multitudes (Rev.17:15 about the "waters" of Rev.17:1 the woman sits upon). This Rev.17:8 beast is about the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, a 2nd beast, an entity. Below we are shown he is a king:

 

 

¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

¹¹ And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

5 kings are fallen, gone, dead, no more. The 6th king existed in Apostle John's days. The 7th is yet to come, still even for today.

 

When that 7th king comes (the Antichrist), he is to continue "a short space". What's that "short space" timing about? Recall further down about the ten kings ruling "one hour" with this beast, and then remember the ten horn and little horn prophecy from Daniel. Per Daniel, the ten horns are ten kings, and another "little horn" comes up from among them to subdue 3 of the 10 kings. The timing of the ten horns in Daniel is linked to the final beast kingdom of feet of iron mixed with clay, which Jesus smites upon its feet, and then establishes His everlasting Kingdom instead.

 

This means this 7th beast king is the coming Antichrist for this present world time, i.e., the tribulation timing. That is what that "one hour" or "short space" time is about, the tribulation time, the last half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".

 

What does mean for the 8th king then? His time will be after Christ's coming since the 7th is destroyed when Jesus returns. What event in Rev.20 at the end of the thousand years happens with a certain one going out to deceive the nations of Gog and Magog to go upon the "camp of saints" in that time? It's Satan as that 8th king, at the end of Christ's future Millennium reign.

 

Thusly -

5 kings - past historical kings, Satan the beast over them all.

6th king - John's days, Satan over this 6th king.

7th king = the beast of Rev.17:8 that ascends from the bottomless pit for the end of this world, the Antichrist

8th king = Satan again, at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.