Spock Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 but I do not agree that Matthew 24:29-31 is describing the rapture. I believe that passage alludes to the second coming of Christ at the end of Daniels 70th week to regather physical Israel (not the church in rapture) and is at the end of the 7 bowls judgment. Hi Spock, can you prove through scripture that Matt 24:29-31 is in the timeline of what you're describing. Scripture tells me there is only one rapture, the name given (second coming of Christ) is simply a name given for multiple events, and the rapture is one of those events. There is only one rapture- see the 6th seal. This is where Yeshua calls the faithful up to be with him and removes them from planet earth. And yes, the dead in Christ rise first. See 1 thess 4 Then there is the return to planet earth at Meggido where Yeshua will begin to set up his millennium kingdom at the end of the 70th week of Daniel. See rev 19 for a complete description of this event and timeline. Going back to Matt 24:29-31, this is NOT the rapture. The context is quite clear to me- "immediately AFTER the distress of those days..." What distress? The stress of Daniels 70th week. That would be trumpet and bowl judgments. It all makes perfect sense to me. Yeshua will gather all the Jews to return them to the Holy Land to fulfill his promises to Avraham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Jesse, In my opinion, you are making one serious error that is not allowing you to see the big picture correctly. You are ASSUMING the last trumpet has to be the seventh trumpet judgment because to you that makes sense. On the surface, it may make some sense, but I do not believe is correct because it goes against a ton of other scripture. I would recommend you go visit a messianic synagogue and talk with the rabbi to learn about the feasts of The Lord as set forth in the Old Testament, I believe numbers 23. Then, you will understand the feast of TRUMPETS and learn that the 7th trumpet judgment isn't the only trumpet being blown. Cheers, Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 People, each side of this debate has scripture to back what they believe. Debate the subject, not the person. If you wonder why this is enforced, search for threads on the rapture and the evidence will become clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Online Share Posted August 17, 2014 Tribulation and God's wrath are not the same. That's just simply a fact. They are two completely different things, and the seven trumpets are part of His Wrath. Therefore, the rapture is before the seven trumpets and at the sixth seal. I'm inclined to agree with your viewpoint but consider the rapture timing somewhat of a secondary issue. I think our focus should be on discerning the times, which will be beneficial to all. We have examples of God's protection...the Hebrews in Egypt as OneLight pointed out, Lot, and Noah as below. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment..." 2 Peter 2:4-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 Dscapp. The fift trumpet(wrath). Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Are you sealed? Are you one of the 144000? jesse. Yes I am sealed. Going back to Matt 24:29-31, this is NOT the rapture. The context is quite clear to me- "immediately AFTER the distress of those days..." What distress? The stress of Daniels 70th week. That would be trumpet and bowl judgments. It all makes perfect sense to me. Yeshua will gather all the Jews to return them to the Holy Land to fulfill his promises to Avraham. When Matt 24:29 says 'immediately after tribulation' it is referring to the first 3.5 years of the 7 year trib. The first half is called 'the tribulation' and the second half is called 'the great tribulation'. The first half are the seals being opened, the second half is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls being opened. The distress stems from the first 4 seals being opened. The trumpets and bowl judgments come in the second half of the 7 year trib. The first half are the seals. You're forgetting the seals. - ds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 Disc app, You said..... When Matt 24:29 says 'immediately after tribulation' it is referring to the first 3.5 years of the 7 year trib. The first half is called 'the tribulation' and the second half is called 'the great tribulation'. The first half are the seals being opened, the second half is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls being opened. The distress stems from the first 4 seals being opened. The trumpets and bowl judgments come in the second half of the 7 year trib. The first half are the seals. You're forgetting the seals. - ds Spock: everything you said here In my opinion is merely all speculation my dear brother. I think man has determined to call the first half tribulation and the second half great tribulation. As for the seals, I'm still not convinced the seals are even in Daniels week. I'm open to believing they began immediately after Christ was crucified. I know this is radical thinking, but I'm pondering this interpretation a lot of late. Having said all that, You may be right, but I just don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 Disc app, You said..... When Matt 24:29 says 'immediately after tribulation' it is referring to the first 3.5 years of the 7 year trib. The first half is called 'the tribulation' and the second half is called 'the great tribulation'. The first half are the seals being opened, the second half is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls being opened. The distress stems from the first 4 seals being opened. The trumpets and bowl judgments come in the second half of the 7 year trib. The first half are the seals. You're forgetting the seals. - ds Spock: everything you said here In my opinion is merely all speculation my dear brother. I think man has determined to call the first half tribulation and the second half great tribulation. As for the seals, I'm still not convinced the seals are even in Daniels week. I'm open to believing they began immediately after Christ was crucified. I know this is radical thinking, but I'm pondering this interpretation a lot of late. Having said all that, You may be right, but I just don't think so. I believe Dan 9:27 is when the Anti-Christ signs a seven year peace treaty with Israel. The Anti-Christ signing the peace treaty opens up the first seal. There is so much confusion because confusion stems from man and the devil. Seriously?....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_seals lol... Preterist view Historicist view Futurist view Idealist view Branham's view Watchman’s view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 130 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 All one has to do is look at ISIS and the persecution of Christians to know that tribulation and God's wrath are not the same.. Isa 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Matt 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:14-27 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand. 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Rev 6:12-14 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place Working up backwards: Revelations speaks of seals on a scroll. I take that to mean all those seals on the scroll has to be broken for the contents of the scroll to happen. This is describing all the events happening at the pre trib rapture. Luke 21:25-28 is also referring to the pre tribulational rapture. Mark 13:14-27 is talking about two events. The time of the great tribulation when that son of perdition will be revealed, and the time before it happens that the days of the elect will be shortened from seeing it. There is tribulation; and then there is great tribulation. The tribulation that the elect will see in their days is when people will say" lo here is Christ" or there which is happening when people point to coming to God wherever there is a "movement of the Spirit" in seeking after a sign. The elect are not to chase after them. Some may do it, but God will recover them from further chasing after them by returning to their first love, the Bridegroomand, and rest in Jesus Christ that they are always Spirit-filled because Jesus Christ dwells in us by faith. It is because of the falling away from the faith that God has to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event to restore those saved believers that went astray that shall get left behind ( unless they repent in time with His help before the Bridegroom comes ) to the path of righteousness for His name's sake to witness the coming great tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the pre trib rapture as well. Now before some of you disagree, look at how there is an escape and how the time before that escape is hardly depicting what believers would be facing during the great tribulation. Luke 21: 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. One thing to remember is the fall of Babylon in Revelations 18th chapter. If you recall that event as what the second angel told the world about, this is the fire that will be sent on the earth when Jesus appear at the pre trib rapture when one third of the earth gets burned up which is exactly the entire Western Hemisphere. ( Luke 12:49 ) and that is repercussion for not being ready and found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help as stated in Luke 12:40-49 as those saints were fond slain in Babylon, made to rest from their labours as their works shall follow them. Look again: Revelations 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. First angel; the gospel so that every body will know the gospel after the pre trib rapture. Second angel; announcing the fall of Babylon. Yep. That quick. Third angel, warning the world of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast so that no one has any excuse fro not knowing that they would be thrown in the lake of fire. Those three angels sets up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth. The fall of Babylon will be the catalyst for the NWO and the coming mark of the beast system for having a bio chip to buy and sell to survive in the New World Order. Anyway, that is how I read those passages you have referred to and I have referred to several scripture to show why the Lord has led me to read them in that way. Luke 14:15-24 talks about the King's Supper in how some invited were excusing themselves for the cares of this life. Luke 14:25-35 is Jesus expounding on that by what it means to be His disciples: to be chosen for the Marriage Supper as they are to lean on Him for help to not be ensnared by the cares of this life to be not willing to go when the Bridegroom comes. This warning was given to believers and so hardly descriptive of the times when believers are oppressed and persecuted, being starved out and homeless for not having the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell. Luke 17:26-37 also describes a time when believers will be marrying and given in marriage, and the time they are taken, some have been referred to as being taken while working. Again hardly descriptive of what the saints will be going through in the great tribulation. So the time to be ready is now when many are falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils for believing the lie that they can receive Jesus Christ again after a sign. Those that God has opened their eyes to such error can still repent by returning to your first love, the Bridegroom, and chase no more after spirits to receive after a sign in the flesh. Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? So to avoid becoming a reprobate and a castaway, go before that throne of grace for help to keep your eyes on the Bridegroom and chase no more after those spirits for a sign in the market place, because He shall be coming soon for the ready bride of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 You're not understanding something though. Notice in 1 Thess 5:9 that the church is not appointed to wrath. The seven trumpets of God is in regards to His wrath. The tribulation of Christians and God's wrath are not the same. 1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. The seven trumpets are not about God's wrath. Don't know who taught you that, but that's not true. The way you should know that is how Satan's host are ruling all the way up to the 7th trumpet. Look at the events in Rev.9 through Rev.11 regarding the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. A temple is shown, the Gentiles treading the holy city for 42 months which is the time the dragon is given power also per Rev.13, God's two witnesses prophesying against the beast in Jerusalem and causing plagues upon the unbelievers for 1260 days, etc. Those are tribulation upon the saints timing, Satan's wrath, not God's Wrath. God's wrath is shown with the vials, not the trumpets, but His Wrath we are not appointed to per Paul is especially about His Wrath upon the wicked on the last day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 17, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2014 I believe Dan 9:27 is when the Anti-Christ signs a seven year peace treaty with Israel. The Anti-Christ signing the peace treaty opens up the first seal. There is so much confusion because confusion stems from man and the devil. Seriously?....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_seals lol... Preterist view Historicist view Futurist view Idealist view Branham's view Watchman’s view Rev.6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places Have you figured out why that "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs" phrase is there with that event? And the Greek word olynthos about an unripe fig is there in the NT manuscripts. An unripe fig, or untimely fig, is a winter fig that does not mature, but falls off in the spring. Who and what event might that be pointing to? The way we know the "last trump" of Paul is the the 7th trumpet is because the "last trump" is about the resurrection that will occur on the day of Christ's return per Paul again in 1 Thess.4. 1 Cor.15 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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