Pastor claims bible says guns are ok

[Sevenseas]

 

 

Then I apologize. I took it as a personal attack. If you say that is not what you meant, then I'm sorry.

 

 

I did unfollow this thread, but here I am anyway.

 

Thanks fire.  I understood you took it personal....

[Sevenseas]

 

 

 

So let me understand you correctly. You are saying that God is to weak and puny to defend his children. That god is weak that people must rise up and act out of their flesh because God is just to puny and weak to defend his children. God is not in control of anything, so we must do everything our selves because salvation lies not in Jesus but in guns. This is what you are saying correct?

 

 

 

I'm sorry...but this is classic.

 

I have twice asked 'how about all the Jews that were annihilated in WWII...where was God.

 

Answer both times  =  0

 

Were people who tried to save them acting out of their flesh?  Can someone tell me, was God to weak to act on their behalf?

 

Were they sinners?  And we are not?

 

I just don't get it...I really don't.

 

Defense is not acting out of your flesh...do people believe that because Jesus did not do anything that He was demonstrating the status quo for all believers

for all time?

 

Jesus was fullfilling His reason for being on earth.  I agree that it seems that some folk have passed over the OT...again this is not being personally aimed at anyone...

 

There is a season for everything if we believe what the Bible says.....and seasons change

 

There are several concepts presented in this thread and different words...some of these words are not being understood...I don't know why that is.

 

I'm now going to hit the unfollow button...thanks

 

I do not like seeing you go I so agree with you.

 

 

 

LOL!...its a hard thread to stay away from....  ...I just came back to read but am addressing stuff that won't dent the current relaxed atmosphere I am experiencing

[Sevenseas]

 

sevenseas referred back to this post as having some valid points... i kinda think she may have been the only person to have read it. so thank you for mentioning SS! i'm going to go ahead and repost it because i know nobody is going to go back three pages to find post #98.

 

i'd like to point out what should be obvious, but apparently is not.

 

first of all, killing is not the same as murder. God makes clear distinctions between the two. 

 

secondly, and this is CRITICAL here, is that killing a human being (whether it was murder, or an accident, lethal injection, or self defense) does NOT make the person who killed responsible for that person's lack of salvation. 

 

God gives EVERY human ample opportunity to recognize, acknowledge, repent and accept salvation. NO man is without excuse. God knows, and has known since the beginning of creation, the number of each person's days and whether or not that person would accept the gift of eternal life. NOTHING any other human being can do can thwart His plan. God will not allow the death of someone who WOULD accept Him before he DOES accept Him. only those who would never have accepted Him in the first place are going to die without Him.

 

so people here really need to stop trying to make it out as though anybody could possibly be the cause of another going to hell. it just ain't so.

 

and third, people here seem to be forgetting that Jesus and God are always of one accord. ALWAYS. God is a God of justice. vengeance is His. throughout history He has instructed His people to bear arms and defeat evil. yes, He utilizes His people to carry out His plan, His justice.

 

i get the distinct feeling that there are some "NT-Only" folks in this thread, who feel that the OT is irrelevant.

 

i might pop back into this thread once in a while, but i might not.... the amount of judgment and disdain being dished out by at least one who believes that God is all about peace and not about justice is getting me riled up, and that's not good for my health or for the sanity of my family.

 

 

 

just pulled out a gang of weeds and then had a cool shower...worked for me ...  but I did think you made good points

[other one]

I completely disagree. Owning a gun, especially with a gun permit is a lifestyle. As for me saying Jesus not teaching a doctrine of violence. That is the truth. To say Jesus, The prince of Peace, promoted violence is false doctrine. Look at what Jesus said to Peter at Jesus' arrest when peter pulled out a weapon. besides, if you want to convince me your right, then show me in the bible where Jesus himself says to defend yourself with violence or where Jesus himself taught that we are to respond to violence with violence. Until you or anyone else can show me in the Bible where Jesus himself says respond to violence with violence I don't see the point of posting anymore on this subject.

 

btw firestorm   just so you know, my wife would, for the most part, agree with you.      I love her almost as much as I do Jesus, so surely we can be good friends........   She and I just don't discuss guns in any way or form..

[firestormx]

 

I completely disagree. Owning a gun, especially with a gun permit is a lifestyle. As for me saying Jesus not teaching a doctrine of violence. That is the truth. To say Jesus, The prince of Peace, promoted violence is false doctrine. Look at what Jesus said to Peter at Jesus' arrest when peter pulled out a weapon. besides, if you want to convince me your right, then show me in the bible where Jesus himself says to defend yourself with violence or where Jesus himself taught that we are to respond to violence with violence. Until you or anyone else can show me in the Bible where Jesus himself says respond to violence with violence I don't see the point of posting anymore on this subject.

 

btw firestorm   just so you know, my wife would, for the most part, agree with you.      I love her almost as much as I do Jesus, so surely we can be good friends........   She and I just don't discuss guns in any way or form..

 

Agreed, and forgive me here but, it sounds like you married a smart woman,lol

[other one]

 

 

I completely disagree. Owning a gun, especially with a gun permit is a lifestyle. As for me saying Jesus not teaching a doctrine of violence. That is the truth. To say Jesus, The prince of Peace, promoted violence is false doctrine. Look at what Jesus said to Peter at Jesus' arrest when peter pulled out a weapon. besides, if you want to convince me your right, then show me in the bible where Jesus himself says to defend yourself with violence or where Jesus himself taught that we are to respond to violence with violence. Until you or anyone else can show me in the Bible where Jesus himself says respond to violence with violence I don't see the point of posting anymore on this subject.

 

btw firestorm   just so you know, my wife would, for the most part, agree with you.      I love her almost as much as I do Jesus, so surely we can be good friends........   She and I just don't discuss guns in any way or form..

 

Agreed, and forgive me here but, it sounds like you married a smart woman,lol

 

if I was a pagan, she'd be a goddess.

[The_Patriot21]

I keep hearing, over and over again, what Jesus would do. While that is a valid question, its overlooking some key issues. One, like I pointed out to enoob earlier, the ENTIRE bible was given to us-not just the new testament (2 Timothy 3:16) and the law, was given so that we know what sin is (romans 7:7)  Jesus didn't come to eliminate the old testament-He came fulfill the covenant. The law-allows for violence in many cases, such as self defense. In fact, the same God that died for our sins-commanded the Israelites to completly anilate the canannites, men, women AND children. To say that Jesus never condoned violence-is to completly ignore the entire old testament.

 

And its been brought up Jesus told Peter to put his sword away. But I want to point out two things, first off Jesus didn't tell Peter to get rid of His sword-just that it was the wrong time to use it. Second, Jesus told peter to purchase said sword shortly before (Luke 22:36) so that argument bears no weight as far as arguments against the ownership-and use, of deadly weapons. And even before that-Jesus used a whip, to chase off money lenders from a temple. A whip can be just as deadly a weapon as a sword or a gun if used properly-and Jesus did use it. He didn't hurt or kill anyone-but He did use it-and that alone is a clear act of violence. So tell me, how is it your peaceloving Jesus-used violence, and a weapon in that action of violence? And keep in mind-those money changers did not attack Jesus or show any violence toward Him-Jesus was the aggressor in that case. (john 2:15)

[enoob57]

Pat the entire Bible is progressive revelation as being that of truth...
John 18:37
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered,
Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause
came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every
one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
KJV
When the final progression of truth came in the Person of Jesus Christ we
learn one most important reality 'He along 'IS' The Truth'...
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.
KJV
So when you go backward in progressive truth you return to partial truth
to justify yourself as if in the fullness truth- Scripture declares...
John 1:16-18
16 And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For
the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in
the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him
KJV
Clearly you can see this is the outlay of what I have told you and to
return to a system of law to justify one's beliefs is foolhardy. For no
man, but One, could live it and therefore, by law, only One could justify
Their life by it... That being The Laws purpose to declare Christ 'IS'
the fulfillment of The Law! The Spirit succinctly says...
Heb 7:15-19
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of
Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law
of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he
testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for
the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

19 For the law made nothing perfect,

but the bringing in of a better hope did;

 

by the which we drawnigh unto God.
KJV
Heb 9:8-12
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all
was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both
gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect,
as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks,
and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time
of reformation.

 

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to
come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that
is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and
calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.
KJV

We've talked about this before Pat and you ignore this progression of truth
laid out in God's Word and try to live in the fullness of truth that has come
while returning to the partial truth of before to justify the place you are at
in the fullness... it is simply not allowed by God to do so!

Our weapon must be
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to
the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high
thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into
captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
KJV
Love, Steven

[Willa]

Nobody "has" to carry a gun around everywhere they go. It isn't about "having" to do anything. In America, we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Our forefathers died to guarantee us this right. I wish more Americans could be at peace with that.

Many people feel the need to not leave the house without a gun... How can one live in peace when the subconscious knows that guns can promote violence...

Interestingly, if you look over history, in this country as people start to carry guns violent crime goes down.   They are finally starting to experience that in Chicago as has happened in many places across the US.

Our grandson cited this in his pro-gun arguements in highschool--speech I believe. They also have been trained in gun safety and marksmanship since grade school. Our son served in high level security for many years and after terrorist threats was trained in automatic weapons. Now grandson wants to go into law envorcement. Now days gun control is accomplished by ammunition control. They cant afford target practice.

We are proud of our pastor for bagging his first elk last year, even though he announced from the alter that he would not share. (He has always opened his home to the homeless but won't give hand outs) I argue that shooting a person is not the only reason to carry a weapon. In some places in this country you carry a gun every time you go the out house in fear of startling a bear or moose. David defended himself and his flocks with a sling. I have to say that since it throws a projectile, it is closer to a gun than a sword. Probably the only time I could shoot someone is should someone assault one of my grand kids. Defending familly brings out the mama bear (or moose) in me. We have both of these critters in our area as well as mountain lion, by the way.

[Guest LadyC]

well said, willamina.  you say a LOT of things well!