Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Last Daze]

Getting back to basics here-

When do we believe the "Great tribulation" begins?

Show me in the scriptures also if you don't mind. Thanks.

 

Based on what I read in Matthew 24 the great tribulation begins shortly after the abomination of desolation is set up and ends with the sixth seal.

 

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ........ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:15,21

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,......"  Matthew 24:29:30

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  Revelation 6:12-14

 

Notice that it is the sign of the Son of Man that is first seen in Matthew 24:30.  What appeared in the sky, that sign, is evidenced by what the people say when the sixth seal is opened.

 

.......“Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16

 

At the sixth seal, the sky is split apart revealing the scene we see (at least in part) in Revelation 5, i.e. He who sits on the throne and the Lamb.  The great tribulation is over...the great day of their wrath has come.  The Son of Man is not seen until later (seventh trumpet as I see it).

 

At least that's how I see it and why.

[Last Daze]

Next question: Who are the martyrs in Rev 6, seal 5?

I read RT thinking these are the guys killed AFTER the rapture, but how can this be?

The rapture is not revealed until AFTER the 6th seal.

It seems to me these are people martyred for their faith from all time, waiting for the rapture, not after the rapture.

As you can see, I interpret the book of Rev to be very chronological, with character analysis sprinkled in, to let us know more details about the players are in the end times.

 

I tend to agree that these are martyrs from down through the ages.  I believe, however, that they are waiting for the resurrection since the rapture is for those who are alive and remain.  It's all part of the same event though associated with the last day...the resurrection-rapture.

 

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”  John 6:40

[Last Daze]

 

100% agree with this assessment. I think it is a HUGE stretch to interpret the seals, bowls, and trumpets as being one and the same.

The bible has them as different and consecutive. Unless this interpretation makes no sense, imo, it should be assumed to be what was intended.

 

 

I don't think that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are the same thing.  I think that each group happens chronologically within that group.  I also think the trumpets and bowls are related, not the same.

 

As for the chronology of Revelation,

 

Concerning the correlation between the trumpets and bowls,

 

The chronology of the seals, trumpet, and bowls

[Ezra]

The timing of the rapture is explicitly stated as coming after the resurrection, when the dead in Christ are raised immortal by Him.  Christ clearly stated that this is going to happen on the last day. 

 

I believe all Christians will agree that God's revelation is progressive, and that we are to take all Scriptures into account before we understand what is being said.  If we were to read John 6:39,40 ("the last day")  without reference to the rest of the prophecies we would conclude that (1) there is a single day on which the resurrection of life occurs and (2) there is no Rapture which occurs simultaneously, because there is simply no indication of such an event by the Lord.  Then if we turn to John 12:48 which also mentions "the last day" it woud appear that the judgment of unbelievers would also occur on the same day.  Then, if we turn to John 5:28, 29 ("the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation") we would conclude that both the saints and the unbelievers are raised up at the same time, indeed in the same "hour".

 

But is that really so?  Not if you study all the other prophecies as well as "the mysteries".  There is a resurrection of martyred saints in Rev 20:4-6 and a reference to "the first resurrection" (which Christ did not mention in John), then after the thousand years (Millennium) and the battle of Gog and Magog, there is another resurrection, which is of the damned (Rev 20:12), at the Great White Throne judgment.  But didn't Jesus say "the hour is coming"?  Then what do we make of all the hours between these resurrections in Rev 20?  That's where we rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

Again, if we were to read about "the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5,6) without reference to other Scriptures, we would concluded that the whole Church was "beheaded for the witness of Jesus" (Rev 20:4).  But is that really so?   Not if you study John 14:1-3,  1 Cor 15:51-57, and 1 Thess 4:13-18; 5:1-11.

 

Our gathering to Christ is stated as being on the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2).

 

It appears that way, and it also appears as if "the Day of the Lord" is a single day.  But on further investigation, that is not the case. 2 Thess 2:1-12 must be interpreted in light of 1 Thess 5:1-11: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of [the Lord] is at hand." [Not "day of Christ"]

This coming of the Lord is for the "gathering together" of the saints.  If we were to insist that this "gathering together" occurs at the same time as Christ's coming "with power and great glory" to judge the world (Mt 24:30), we would be totally confused, because in Jude 14,15 and Rev 19:14, we see the saints coming with Christ.  How could this be simultaneous when the Marriage of the Lamb occurs in Rev 19:7-9?  Do you see how utterly confusing everything becomes unless one accepts a pre-Tribulation Rapture?

 

 

The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5). The resurrection-rapture happens at some point after the sixth bowl when the armies gather together for the battle of Armageddon.

 

Can anyone really believe that the resurrection-rapture occurs during the Day of the Lord? Here is what the Day of the Lord looks like (Isa 13:6-11):

⁶Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

⁷Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

⁸And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

⁹Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

¹⁰For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

¹¹And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

Is it even credible to think that while God is bringing down His fierce wrath on the world, He is SIMULTANEOUSLY raising and transforming the saints into a glorious Church, especially when Scripture clearly states that "He comes WITH His saints"?

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

Hi marilyn, In my opinion, this is very weak support to prove your point here. I'm not saying you can't be right, but In my opinion, it is very weak evidence, and Im not persuaded.......yet.

 

Hi Spock,

 

Obviously that point is only part of a body of evidence in scripture & it relates to the conversation I was having with William. If you think it is weak, then it would be good for you to point out exactly why showing from scripture your reasons. Otherwise you are just bringing judgments without back up. For us to learn from each other we need to show correction from the scriptures & not just `in my opinion.`

 

Also you as a teacher & with knowledge of the law (though probably not criminal) know that it is the motive that is important. Thus until we all start to think about God`s motive (purposes) for these different groups then we can all just shuffle the chairs on the Titanic, as it were.

 

Good to chat with you again. Marilyn.

[Spock]

Getting back to basics here-

When do we believe the "Great tribulation" begins?

Show me in the scriptures also if you don't mind. Thanks.

 

Based on what I read in Matthew 24 the great tribulation begins shortly after the abomination of desolation is set up and ends with the sixth seal.

 

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ........ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:15,21

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,......"  Matthew 24:29:30

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  Revelation 6:12-14

 

Notice that it is the sign of the Son of Man that is first seen in Matthew 24:30.  What appeared in the sky, that sign, is evidenced by what the people say when the sixth seal is opened.

 

.......“Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16

 

At the sixth seal, the sky is split apart revealing the scene we see (at least in part) in Revelation 5, i.e. He who sits on the throne and the Lamb.  The great tribulation is over...the great day of their wrath has come.  The Son of Man is not seen until later (seventh trumpet as I see it).

 

At least that's how I see it and why.

Thanks Daze. By the way, I like your manner of presenting your case. Very friendly and respectful.

Now, here is a thought or two I would like your feedback on:

1. I agree 100 % when the GT begins- immediately after the abomination. I suppose it will be very very disturbing to be living here, especially if you don't take the mark of the beast, with God blasting his wrath.

2. Now, your answer as to when it ends has me perplexed, although I can see the basis for you saying this- Matthew 24:29-31. However, in that passage the word GREAT is not there. It just says after the tribulation or in many translations, distress. So, is it possible this passage is talking about when the tribulation (distress) ends, which many believe are the seals, up to the 6th seal?

You see, I can see Matt 25:29-31 as being a rapture passage. So, immediately after seals 1-5 (the distress, not the GT), while in the 6th seal, the sign of the son of man will appear and poof, up go the true church.

What do you think? Where do you think this thinking may be flawed?

Thanks,

Spock

[Spock]

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

Hi marilyn, In my opinion, this is very weak support to prove your point here. I'm not saying you can't be right, but In my opinion, it is very weak evidence, and Im not persuaded.......yet.

Hi Spock,

 

Obviously that point is only part of a body of evidence in scripture & it relates to the conversation I was having with William. If you think it is weak, then it would be good for you to point out exactly why showing from scripture your reasons. Otherwise you are just bringing judgments without back up. For us to learn from each other we need to show correction from the scriptures & not just `in my opinion.`

 

Also you as a teacher & with knowledge of the law (though probably not criminal) know that it is the motive that is important. Thus until we all start to think about God`s motive (purposes) for these different groups then we can all just shuffle the chairs on the Titanic, as it were.

 

Good to chat with you again. Marilyn.

Ok, ok, I will say more than just "weak."

Well, for starters, the passage does not say the body of Christ is standing around the throne. All it says is 24 elders are standing around the throne. This has been interpreted in several ways, so I guess we get to pick which one suffices the most.

Do they represent the body of Christ? Maybe, but that still is no proof to me that the rapture has occurred here. No, rev 7 is much more detailed and conclusive to me. Look at that group- innumerable!!!!! I cannot buy these are trib saints only on many levels. Sorry.

I'm sure you have a rebuttal so lay it on me sis.

Shalom,

Spock

[Spock]

Ezra,

I too find it difficult to place the rapture in the Day of the Lord, especially at the end. I can see why some believe that because scripture can be tricky to figure out, but I'm feeling pretty safe to put my two dollars on a pre Day of the Lord rapture.

I wonder how much my return will be on my two dollar wager? Ha

Spock out

[Last Daze]

 

The timing of the rapture is explicitly stated as coming after the resurrection, when the dead in Christ are raised immortal by Him.  Christ clearly stated that this is going to happen on the last day. 

 

I believe all Christians will agree that God's revelation is progressive, and that we are to take all Scriptures into account before we understand what is being said.  If we were to read John 6:39,40 ("the last day")  without reference to the rest of the prophecies we would conclude that (1) there is a single day on which the resurrection of life occurs and (2) there is no Rapture which occurs simultaneously, because there is simply no indication of such an event by the Lord.  Then if we turn to John 12:48 which also mentions "the last day" it woud appear that the judgment of unbelievers would also occur on the same day.  Then, if we turn to John 5:28, 29 ("the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation") we would conclude that both the saints and the unbelievers are raised up at the same time, indeed in the same "hour".

 

But is that really so?  Not if you study all the other prophecies as well as "the mysteries".  There is a resurrection of martyred saints in Rev 20:4-6 and a reference to "the first resurrection" (which Christ did not mention in John), then after the thousand years (Millennium) and the battle of Gog and Magog, there is another resurrection, which is of the damned (Rev 20:12), at the Great White Throne judgment.  But didn't Jesus say "the hour is coming"?  Then what do we make of all the hours between these resurrections in Rev 20?  That's where we rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

Again, if we were to read about "the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5,6) without reference to other Scriptures, we would concluded that the whole Church was "beheaded for the witness of Jesus" (Rev 20:4).  But is that really so?   Not if you study John 14:1-3,  1 Cor 15:51-57, and 1 Thess 4:13-18; 5:1-11.

 

Our gathering to Christ is stated as being on the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2).

 

It appears that way, and it also appears as if "the Day of the Lord" is a single day.  But on further investigation, that is not the case. 2 Thess 2:1-12 must be interpreted in light of 1 Thess 5:1-11: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of [the Lord] is at hand." [Not "day of Christ"]

This coming of the Lord is for the "gathering together" of the saints.  If we were to insist that this "gathering together" occurs at the same time as Christ's coming "with power and great glory" to judge the world (Mt 24:30), we would be totally confused, because in Jude 14,15 and Rev 19:14, we see the saints coming with Christ.  How could this be simultaneous when the Marriage of the Lamb occurs in Rev 19:7-9?  Do you see how utterly confusing everything becomes unless one accepts a pre-Tribulation Rapture?

 

 

The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5). The resurrection-rapture happens at some point after the sixth bowl when the armies gather together for the battle of Armageddon.

 

Can anyone really believe that the resurrection-rapture occurs during the Day of the Lord? Here is what the Day of the Lord looks like (Isa 13:6-11):

⁶Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

⁷Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

⁸And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

⁹Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

¹⁰For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

¹¹And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

Is it even credible to think that while God is bringing down His fierce wrath on the world, He is SIMULTANEOUSLY raising and transforming the saints into a glorious Church, especially when Scripture clearly states that "He comes WITH His saints"?

 

 

Hi Ezra,

 

There are only three resurrections where people are raised immortal as I see it.

 

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.   1 Corinthians 15:20-24

 

There is only one resurrection of those who are Christ's.  It happens at His coming...on the last day, the day of the Lord.  There are other "resurrections" where people are raised from the dead, however, they are still mortal such as Lazarus, Tabitha, etc.  When someone is raised immortal, they will not die again.

 

Looking at the above verse, there is clearly a gap between the resurrections.  One resurrection happens when Christ returns.  The other happens when He hands the kingdom over to the Father 1000 years later.  There is a "last day" for each.  Although spoken of together in some places, they are 1000 years apart.  There is nothing to indicate that the hour when all in the tombs hear His voice and come forth happens all at the same time.  That would contradict the above verse from 1 Corinthians which I believe is a direct statement.  Concluding that all in the tombs hear His voice and come forth at the same time is in my opinion an assumption.  When I look at prophecy, I give precedence to things that are directly stated.

 

The first resurrection just includes those beheaded.  Nothing I find indicates it is exclusively those.

 

 

 

This coming of the Lord is for the "gathering together" of the saints.  If we were to insist that this "gathering together" occurs at the same time as Christ's coming "with power and great glory" to judge the world (Mt 24:30), we would be totally confused, because in Jude 14,15 and Rev 19:14, we see the saints coming with Christ.  How could this be simultaneous when the Marriage of the Lamb occurs in Rev 19:7-9?  Do you see how utterly confusing everything becomes unless one accepts a pre-Tribulation Rapture?

 

I don't see it as confusing at all.  The day of the Lord begins when the seventh trumpet sounds.  He descends in the clouds and gathers together those who are His (resurrection-rapture).  He and they then go to the marriage supper.  Remember that those raised are immortal and outside of time, so time is of no consequence.  After the supper, on the same literal earth day, when the seventh bowl is poured out, He returns with His saints and begins governing the earth.  I'm not sure where the confusion comes in.  It's not a simultaneous event and as I see it, it is a very credible way to interpret it.  It harmonizes with the rest of scripture, at least in my mind.

[Marilyn C]

 

 

 

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

Hi marilyn, In my opinion, this is very weak support to prove your point here. I'm not saying you can't be right, but In my opinion, it is very weak evidence, and Im not persuaded.......yet.

 

Hi Spock,

 

Obviously that point is only part of a body of evidence in scripture & it relates to the conversation I was having with William. If you think it is weak, then it would be good for you to point out exactly why showing from scripture your reasons. Otherwise you are just bringing judgments without back up. For us to learn from each other we need to show correction from the scriptures & not just `in my opinion.`

 

Also you as a teacher & with knowledge of the law (though probably not criminal) know that it is the motive that is important. Thus until we all start to think about God`s motive (purposes) for these different groups then we can all just shuffle the chairs on the Titanic, as it were.

 

Good to chat with you again. Marilyn.

 

Ok, ok, I will say more than just "weak."

Well, for starters, the passage does not say the body of Christ is standing around the throne. All it says is 24 elders are standing around the throne. This has been interpreted in several ways, so I guess we get to pick which one suffices the most.

Do they represent the body of Christ? Maybe, but that still is no proof to me that the rapture has occurred here. No, rev 7 is much more detailed and conclusive to me. Look at that group- innumerable!!!!! I cannot buy these are trib saints only on many levels. Sorry.

I'm sure you have a rebuttal so lay it on me sis.

Shalom,

Spock

 

Hi Spock,

 

Well you are having a busy time, bless you bro. Now I am very, very glad to hear you give reasons (whether I believe them or not) for what you are thinking. It seems we have differences in regard to the 24 elders & the great multitude. Discussing this, I think will only get into the pre / mid / post dance & as I have never learnt to dance, (though hubby is good) I don`t want to tread on your toes.

 

As I said we need to think & discuss what God`s purposes are otherwise we will continue to all post our details with no regard for who has designed this. So I will wait till we get to working on that topic as I see it will be much more profitable.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.