Does the man of sin meet the requirements to be Islamic?

[JustinM]

I disagree Last Daze, I don't believe it will be islamic.  Evil is evil, regardless of what form or religion it disguises itself with.  Whomever the kingdom of the beast is, or what religion it uses to control the people, it will lead to the death of 2/3's of the world.  That's over 4 billion and counting.

[Last Daze]

I disagree Last Daze, I don't believe it will be islamic.  Evil is evil, regardless of what form or religion it disguises itself with.  Whomever the kingdom of the beast is, or what religion it uses to control the people, it will lead to the death of 2/3's of the world.  That's over 4 billion and counting.

 

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.  I'm just saying that I don't expect Islam to be wiped out, nor do I expect that they will be the only ones involved in enforcing the ultimatum.  It's just a "fit" for them given their propensity.  All religions / beliefs will succumb to the deception of the false prophet because of the signs he performs....except one.

 

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.   Matthew 24:24

 

Neither do I believe the false prophet to be Islamic.  He will be Satanic.  His religion is to promote rebellion against God among men.  It always has been.  He will want the world to worship him.  He always has.  It's also known as Mystery Babylon.  The false prophet will be a Mystery Babylonian....as I see it.

[redroses42]

Will we still be here when these things take place or will the church be raptured

[other one]

Will we still be here when these things take place or will the church be raptured

There have been several extremely long threads concerning that question over the ten or so years I've been here.  One of the early threads is still going on......   been going on for 12 or 13 years..

[Sister]

 

[Sister]

I answered you Red Roses, but I answered on the wrong thread and on the wrong subject.

I have deleted my answer.

 

 

[Diaste]

 

William

 

...I thought the same as serving when you wrote this;

 

Now, Rev. 19 tells us that the False Prophet will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon, the very last act of the Satan's end time rebellion. But if Jesus comes for his Church before this time, "with power and great glory," Mt. 24:31, "with a shout/lit. voice of command," 1 Thes. 4:16, then THAT is when the Son of Perdition will be destroyed. Ergo, he cannot be the False Prophet.

 

 

Now looking at it more closely, you didn't say that Christ comes before the tribulation, but "if" he comes before Armageddon for his church...however, this doesn't line up with scripture..

William: I of course have a different understanding, which you have failed to study out. I understand your position, but you do not understand mine.

 

At the Exodus, YHWH came first in a pillar of cloud and fire; then in Presence, speaking personally to all the people from Mount Sinai; and much later as a warrior, to fight all the kings assembled together against Joshua and Israel. YHWH did not come three separate times: this was all one continuous coming.

 

The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier.

 

I was wondering if you have any scripture relating to you statement:

 

"The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier."

 

I have heard about this "continuous coming" for decades. Never seen any scripture relating to this.

[Diaste]

Hi Diaste,

 

Nice to meet you.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I actually forgot about it and it seems my email alerts have to be reset. :-)

 

 

 

Diaste: The above two statements cannot necessarily be true. Scripture records no time frame for when his blasphemy begins nor for when his heart is set against all other gods. A strict reading of Dan 11:36-38 below, we see he has a god, and a god with a capital 'G'. The God of forces. It's a god his fathers didn't know. And the willful king honors this God with expensive stuff. The beast has a God that he worships. This leads us to the conclusion that the beast could come from any religion from anywhere in the world and is clearly not atheist. Why? Because the beast had fathers who worshipped God, and the beast worships a God of forces. Atheists don't believe there is a god of any stripe. The beast also knows that his fathers had a god and he chooses not to regard their god but chooses another god.

 

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

 

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

 

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

 

We saw God tell us that this man regards no god, no religion (women) & neither the God of his fathers.

 

So unlike his predecessors of old (his fathers), this man does not believe in their (his fathers) God .. so he is an unbeliever ..

It's not true that the only conclusion is that the 'willful king' is an unbeliever. The scripture says he 'regards' no god. The Hebrew means to 'separate mentally', or 'distinguish'.

So the conclusion that he an unbeliever isn't correct. The willful king sees all gods the same, as less than him. If he was an unbeliever or an atheist he would not be magnifying himself over the other gods, none exist in their mind. As an atheist doesn't think there are any gods, there would be nothing for the atheist to exalt himself over, or magnify himself above, nor speak marvelous things against. The fact is the willful king does believe in God he just wants to be above God and make himself the greatest god.

 

Then we come to the declaration that instead, he worships a God of forces with gold & precious things.

 

So the question becomes, does or doesn't he worship a god?

 

Which is it?

 

We cant have both because they cancel each other out .. so what does God mean?

 

Simply, I believe it means that this man believes in power (god of forces = armies) whom he honours (sustains) with $$$ (gold / silver etc = currency) .. don't forget that craft (technology) prospers under his rule.

 

God tells us in the scriptures that all men have set up their idols in their hearts .. all men .. believers & non believers alike regardless of religious standing.

 

How can a non believer have a god (idol)?

 

Easy ..

 

Because whatever is first in ones heart, success, fame, money, careers etc etc  is ones god.

 

For that prime place in mens hearts,  is the place where God is meant to be .. to love the Lord with all ones heart, mind & soul .. being the greatest commandment. 

 

And if one has put other loves / desires in that place where God should be, then they have replaced the one true God with another.

 

Thus usurping God's place as #1 in their hearts and replacing it with another grand desire .. be it fame, wealth, power etc etc etc etc.

 

Now scriptures are reconciled through the scriptural understanding that mans greatest desire (whatever is first in his heart) is actually elevated to being the god of his heart.

 

So this is how even non believers have a god in Gods eyes  ..  by what is #1 in their hearts. 

 

And this is what God is speaking of concerning this wicked man .. his god (#1 hearts desire) is power through might = armies = forces

I understand what you are saying but that isn't what going on here. The willful kings father's believed in god, or gods. This means the willful king was schooled in the existence of the god of his fathers. The  willful kings is making a choice to not honor the gods of his fathers and instead chooses to honor another god his fathers didn't know or worship. It's true that anything can be a god to any individual. But in the Hebrew all the gods, or God, in this passage of Daniel refer to deities and not idolatry, which is what you are suggesting. The willful king is worshiping and honoring a deity. That being said, the deity is false. It's an usurper posing as a deity albeit with supernatural power. What we are seeing is a king that comes along and does not distinguish between minor gods and Almighty God but exalts himself over those gods and honors a different god. No contradiction and no forced interpretation.

 

Thanks Diaste.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Diaste

[WilliamL]

 

 

William

 

...I thought the same as serving when you wrote this;

 

Now, Rev. 19 tells us that the False Prophet will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon, the very last act of the Satan's end time rebellion. But if Jesus comes for his Church before this time, "with power and great glory," Mt. 24:31, "with a shout/lit. voice of command," 1 Thes. 4:16, then THAT is when the Son of Perdition will be destroyed. Ergo, he cannot be the False Prophet.

 

 

Now looking at it more closely, you didn't say that Christ comes before the tribulation, but "if" he comes before Armageddon for his church...however, this doesn't line up with scripture..

William: I of course have a different understanding, which you have failed to study out. I understand your position, but you do not understand mine.

 

At the Exodus, YHWH came first in a pillar of cloud and fire; then in Presence, speaking personally to all the people from Mount Sinai; and much later as a warrior, to fight all the kings assembled together against Joshua and Israel. YHWH did not come three separate times: this was all one continuous coming.

 

The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier.

 

I was wondering if you have any scripture relating to you statement:

 

"The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier."

 

I have heard about this "continuous coming" for decades. Never seen any scripture relating to this.

 

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath came/is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Revelation 6:12-17 says that after the 6th Seal is opened, there are great heavenly and earthly cataclysms, followed by the people of the earth hiding themselves from the sight of the Face of God and the Lamb, "For the great day of his wrath came/is come..." The verb is in the aorist tense: aorist means without (a-) time/horizon (-oristos). What this indicates in the context is "past or present and continuing action." That is, the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord begins or has just begun at this point, and will continue for some extended period of time. English has no tense equivalent, which is why it is so hard to translate: in English, it should literally read, "...the great day of his wrath is/has come and continues..."

 

This is exactly what occurred when God came at the Exodus, as noted above. God's Presence initially came with the pillar of cloud and fire, and continued to accompany Israel in various manifestations for the 40 years of the wilderness sojourn, and afterward during the conquest of Canaan. The Book of Revelation chapters 4-19 are the account of the events that will occur during the whole period of the Presence in the Latter Days. It is ludicrous to presume that when the men of earth hide themselves from the glory of the Lord at his coming, for example, that this will be the very same day when the kings of the earth are also going out to fight against him.

 

The Coming of Christ is a continuing presence beginning at the 6th Seal, along with the continuing Day of Wrath. The Church is removed to heaven first, after the 6th Seal is opened, which is shown clearly in Rev. 7. The Messianic Kingdom of earthly Israel is established at the 7th Trumpet, following the 1260 days of Jacob's Trouble: Dan. 7, Rev. 11-13, etc. Two different culminations: first heavenly, then earthly Israel. The 7th Bowl finalizes Christ's defeat of the Gentile nations that remain in rebellion against his authority, who are led by the Beast.

 

Here is an example of two other aorist verbs in context:

John 3:16 For God so loved [and continues to love: aorist tense] the world, that he gave [and continues to give: aorist tense] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Aorist verbs are usually translated into English Bibles "as simple past tense." (blueletterbible.org) But as you can see from the example of John 3:16 above, the much deeper meaning is lost in such a translation.

[Sister]

 

 

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath came/is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

William

 

Revelation 16:18   And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:19   And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 16:20   And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 16:21   And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

All the trumpets/vials is God's doing yes, and lead up to this particular day, .....the Day of the Lord, when Christ takes over all the kingdoms of the earth.

Until this day, the take-over by Christ, the nations remain in the hands of men.

When Christ comes and shows his wrath which is preserved for this day, he will destroy the system of Babylon for once and for good.

This is the day God spoke of, the actual coming, the day of the Lord.

 

Picture this scenario;

1. Armies gathered at Armageddon to war the lamb (6th seal)

Just prior to this day, there has been a war amongst the nations as never seen before, where they are fighting each other in Israel.

The whole nation of Israel has been invaded by all the kings of the earth (their armies), people are fleeing, chaos, fear,....

as the troops come in they destroy everything in their path and a third of men caught in this battle are killed.

 

Something stops this war suddenly (or no flesh will survive).

Christ appears in the sky.  How long is he there for we don't know exactly but it wont be long. The second woe is the gathering of armies, and the third woe (the coming) comes quickly.

The sky must be lit up so bright. 

The armies stop warring, and they don't know it's Christ.  Probably been told they've been invaded by aliens.

Don't forget the deception is so great during these times.

Whilst the armies are regathering, ..the resurrection of the saints takes place.  This would now be the 7th trumpet.

 

 

The world is watching.  Their husbands, sons, grandsons, brothers and friends are all stationed there in Armageddon.

They are depending on them to save humanity from this invader in the sky...

 

Every one is on edge, the world is watching this bright thing in the sky with such fear?

Christ with all his saints now and host of heaven waits for the attack.  The attack begins.

With the command of his Word, Christ showers the earth with hailstones the size of 40kg.

These hailstones crush everything they fall on, those armies and men over the whole face of the earth.

Men are fleeing for their lives ducking for cover in buildings etc,

but Christ will give them no rest yet, and sends an earthquake so big, that every single building comes down.

There is no place for them to hide now, so this verse gets fulfilled;

 

Revelation 6:15   And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

The people are deeply afraid because man whom they trusted in could not save them.

They must be remembering the two witnesses already killed and their warnings that the Lamb will return for vengeance.

They will remember that the two killed witnesses came back to life 3 1/2 days later, and the world saw.

They realise only now what the 2 witnesses spoke is true,..because it's still fresh, and they acknowledge that this is the Lamb who has come.

This is the day the Lord spoke of.  This is the actual day of Christ's return, his coming.

No other day or trumpet can compare to this day when men realise who is really in charge.

Everything they have is now gone.  Everything.

 

This day happens at the 7th trumpet, the take-over by Christ and his saints.  This is the day of vengeance.

All the events leading up to this is not the actual coming although Christ is there, but it's this day that he speaks of when Babylon is destroyed.