does God actually forgive?

[RustyAngeL]

On 5/19/2015 at 2:04 PM, nonamenight88 said:

So, does God actually forgive may sound like a strange question. Scripture indicates that he does. But really, is it not true that God only forgives after he has punished sin?. So really he doesn't out and out forgive the sin he actually punishes it first.

 

So really, are our sins forgiven? In a sense no, they are punished upon Jesus so that the punishment does not have to go on us.

 

Maybe that makes no sense, that's the best I can explain for now. If someone can help me out would be appreciated.

 

S

No Jesus took the punishment of sin for us on the cross.  He shed His blood to cover our sins and forgives us of that sin the second we ask for it.  All you need to do is humble yourself and ask Him to forgive you.  We may have consequences of that sin but it is totally forgiven.   

Blessings, RustyAngeL

[Eoreris]

Thanks guys and Jesus is Lord..  I have tons more to write and explain but I am a newbie here and cannot post nor reply in the prophecy forum.. would love to though but I think one has to make it to an upper level and I do not have the time, God bless you all, I really like this site.. BTW  I am a male.. sorry for the gender mistake

Edited July 12, 2016 by Eoreris

[Irishgurl]

Of course

[SHINY4UJESUS]

NONAME: 1) God does not only forgive He completely removes all record of the sin as though it were never committed. This is due to the blood of Jesus; which forever removed the stain, power and penalty of sin.

2) Yes it is "After He punishes the sin." However, He once and for all let Jesus take that punishment for all men and women for all time. This means your sin was already "disciplined," and the penalty/price was paid in Christ.

3) Read Romans 7:1-22 regarding Paul's continued struggle with sin. He was at the height of his spiritual maturity, had already authored near 66% of the new testament, and had been a top pharisee for 30 years..yet he still struggled. This passage gives great insight as to the nature of the flesh as well as the difference bewteen unrepentant and unconscious sin

 

[Jeff2]

I know of no passage that says that Jesus was "punished" or that anything was "paid" in the Atonement.  Having said that, it would be wrong to impose upon the meaning of Atonement that which the Bible has never stated.

The original question was, "Is there forgiveness"? If I stand before a Judge, He has to power to pardon or to punish me for my crimes. If someone comes in and "pays the penalty", and the Judge accepts that payment as sufficient, he does not pardon me, but allows me to go because the penalty is satisfied.

A Judge can either pardon or punish/ not both. If a full-satisfaction punishment is accepted, there is nothing left to forgive. This theological assertion leads to people either being Atoned for and inevitably saved, and those not Atoned for ultimately lost without any genuine offer of hope.  While exceptionally popular as a theory, it was developed to support the conclusions of the Calvinistic theory.

There are many objections to the theory which are not Biblical. There are many negative results that the theory inevitably brings us to, but the essential objection is that such language is nowhere stated in Scripture that establishes the doctrine, or that one should draw any dogmatic conclusion from the theory they may append to it.

 

This unhappy truth is troubling to many because they build their theological house of cards on these concepts being a reality. Would it not be better to draw one's conclusions on what is said, instead of what is never said?

[FresnoJoe]

On 3/21/2017 at 9:32 PM, Jeff2 said:

I know of no passage that says that Jesus was "punished"....
or that anything was "paid" in the Atonement....

That

But he was pierced for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5 (New Heart English Bible)

House Of Cards

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace Ephesians 1:7 (New International Version)

Turns Out To Be The Holy

For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days. 1 Pete 1:18-20 (New Living Translation)

Priceless Blood Of The Lamb Of God

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5 (American King James Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[Willa]

www.dictionary.com/browse/redeemer

1.  

redeemer in the Bible Expand. Heb. goel; i.e., one charged with the duty of restoring the rights of another and avenging his wrongs (Lev. 25:48, 49; Num. 5:8; Ruth 4:1; Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35, etc.). This title is peculiarly applied to Christ. He redeems us from all evil by the payment of a ransom (q.v.).

 

We are redeemed by Christ's blood  .Act 20:28  NKJV Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Col 1:13  He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, Col 1:14  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Mat 20:28  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

 

To purchase is to make payment, to redeem is to buy back, again to pay for.  The word may not be found but the idea is there.   

On 3/21/2017 at 7:32 PM, Jeff2 said:

I know of no passage that says that Jesus was "punished" or that anything was "paid" in the Atonement.  

[Reinitin]

Yes, he completely forgives. His just law requirements  (if you do x the consiquence is y) and anger and frustration from our straying from his good purpose for creating man is completely satisfied in Christ and his good purpose for creating man are now perfectly facilitated through Christ.

[Jeff2]

Joe, thank you for the response.

 

May I note that the only place you found the word "paid" was from a paraphrase, and not a translation of the Scriptures.

 

Otherwise, the idea of payment and punishment are never stated. My point is, we should build or doctrine on what actually is asserted in the Scriptures, and not where the Scriptures are silent.

If we impose payment and punishment and to develop one's doctrine from the concepts, it is not arriving at Biblical Doctrine, but philosophy. I cannot accept "proof" of any doctrine based upon the philosophy of man, instead of what the Bible actually says.

 

There is no doubt a "cost;" there is no doubt "suffering," (Which the Sacrifice of Christ is always spoken of, and never as "Punished.")

 

The idea of incorporating a Penal Theory was to enforce and lead one to an inevitable Hyper-Calvinism. Following the undeniable conclusions to where this leads, would make even a Calvinist uneasy with the inevitable results. It impacts the Scriptures in a way that affects many doctrines negatively. I am just saying... don't use theory to prove doctrine; use the Bible. If you raise the theory to being equal with the Bible, then you have to accept every point where it leads, not just where you want to lead.  

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Jeff2

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Jeff

Welcome to Worthy.....I've heard this argument many times & I don't mean that in a negative way,some very brilliant people debate this very same Topic and it can be quite a contoversial issue,however,I do agree with Willa.....to compare Gods Word to mans penal theory is indeed "logical ",it stands to reason in our finite minds ,,,but thank God we have His Holy Spirit to Reveal to us His Timeless Truth...

   I don't know about you but my sins were deserving of the death sentence,if I were to write them down then "no where" would it be written that I committed murder but I surely had the sin in my cold hard heart etc,,,etc,,, No where in the Scriptures does it say "Trinity"but the idea is there ,as Willa put it......Jesus took my place on the cross & my spirit will be Redeemed when it comes time and all in Christ are Risen because Jesus has bought & paid the ransom...I am forgiven.....I believe I worded that the way I meant to,I surely hope so,lol

   Anyway,I do believe you believe Salvation is by Gods Grace,through our Faith in the Knowledge of WHO Jesus is,that through Him our sins are forgiven and we are RECONCILED back to our Heavenly Father.....so,since that is probably not the issue at hand can I assume you are trying to make some point? Please do tell me what it is because I honestly don't see one except whether or not the Scriptures actually do say "paid" & what was the other one,can't seem to find your other reply?Oh,"punishment".....the actual question of the OP ,......sure sounds like punishment tome

                                                                                                                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik