Could be plenty of time before rapture

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

 

You can hope for the best, just prepare for the worst.  It's simply the most prudent thing to do.

 

 

That could be a prudent thing to be sure. Joseph was prudent when he prepared for 7 lean years ( coincidence?)

 

However, the bulk of teaching in the New Testament concerning the hard times to come, whether in the Gospels, the Epistles, or the book of Revelation, speak to the idea of being spiritually ready, as opposed to physically ready.

 

I see nothing wrong with making a few plans and preparations, about food storage, medications, water, weather protection and the like - even if believers were to find themselves in the midst of the great tribulation, it would still be good to be as able as possible, to help others.

 

However, being up on knowing scripture (so as to know how to live and not be deceived), being thankful, charitable, worshipful, prayerful, etc. is what the bible indicates our focus to be. We are to be found doing the Masters will when He comes.

 

I recommend 1 John 2 as a short refresher course. Thanks for your reply, Last Daze, and thanks for reading my post.

[Spock]

Hey Oakwood,

For the record.......

I never said I was a follower of the pre trib rapture camp as they define pre trib.

I believe the rapture occurs during the opening of the 6th seal. I do not believe this qualifies me as pre trib.

I am a follower of the rapture before GODS WRATH UNLEASHED camp though that promotes the lifting out of the believers before God unleashes his wrath. (God never said man would be exempt from mans wrath against them, which has been witnessed for thousands of years and which as you have noted, is very prevalent in the ME today, especially against Christians. I hope for their sake they leave their countries much like the Jews tried to do from Germany and Poland in particular, during the 1930s.)

In conclusion: we are talking apples and oranges

You- mans wrath (no one exempt, happens all the time throughout history, do your best to avoid I guess)

Me- gods wrath (believer exempt, you don't want to be here when it happens)

[OakWood]

Hey Oakwood,

For the record.......

I never said I was a follower of the pre trib rapture camp as they define pre trib.

I believe the rapture occurs during the opening of the 6th seal. I do not believe this qualifies me as pre trib.

I am a follower of the rapture before GODS WRATH UNLEASHED camp though that promotes the lifting out of the believers before God unleashes his wrath. (God never said man would be exempt from mans wrath against them, which has been witnessed for thousands of years and which as you have noted, is very prevalent in the ME today, especially against Christians. I hope for their sake they leave their countries much like the Jews tried to do from Germany and Poland in particular, during the 1930s.)

In conclusion: we are talking apples and oranges

You- mans wrath (no one exempt, happens all the time throughout history, do your best to avoid I guess)

Me- gods wrath (believer exempt, you don't want to be here when it happens)

 

Ok fair enough, but I'm the same. But pre-tribbers do seem to claim that Christians will escape the horrors of the Great Tribulation (which of course is not God's wrath, but persecution under the banner of the Beast).

Even if pre-tribbers are correct, their arguments about Christians escaping suffering because God has promised that they will, do not ring true. The Christians in the ME are experiencing their own kind of Tribulation that is being carried out by men under the banner of a false god who tells them to worship him or die. What is happening over there has the hallmarks of the Great Trib. It's not the Great Trib but is very similar. This is not some blip in history. It is happening to Christians that once lived in a civilised World and the horrors of Hell have just been unleashed upon them, and all during a time when the rest of the Christian World knows that we're in the End Times, and many are awaiting the rapture.

Can they not see that the rapture, (even if it does occur pre-Trib) won't necessarily save them from the pain and suffering? Some of them believe that they might experience a little persecution, a bit of mocking then whooosh.... the rapture comes and rescues them before they experience any real pain. Yet what is happening in the ME has shown that this may not necessarily be the case.

Put it this way, I hear pre-Tribbers all the time, praying for the rapture to come soon so that they can escape this World. Yet they do not seem to realise that they are not a special case. What if ISIS comes to the West in the next few years and starts murdering and torturing Christian communities in the U.S. Britain or France? What will the pre-Tribbers think then?

I know that if I was a pre-Tribber and I lived in these places where ISIS were present, I would start to doubt the pre-Trib theory. I would be wondering why God hadn't rescued me as promised. It's very easy for Christians living in comfort in suburban, middle-class Texas to talk about a pre-Trib rapture yet they don't seem to realise that the rapture has failed to come in time to rescue their brothers and sisters in Iraq and Syria.

[OneLight]

 

Matthew 24:31 = Rapture

Matthew 25:31 = Second coming

There is no correspondence between Mt 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:13-18.

 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

¹⁶For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Angels                 vs      voice of the Archangel

He shall send      vs       the Lord Himself shall descend

No shout             vs       with a shout

A trumpet            vs       the trump of God

The four winds    vs       in the clouds

His elect              vs       we (the Church)

 

The "elect" in Mt 24:31 are the believing remnant of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ, long after the Rapture (Rom 11:5).

 

 

 

How does 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 fit into this?

 

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

You can hope for the best, just prepare for the worst.  It's simply the most prudent thing to do.

 

 

That could be a prudent thing to be sure. Joseph was prudent when he prepared for 7 lean years ( coincidence?)

 

However, the bulk of teaching in the New Testament concerning the hard times to come, whether in the Gospels, the Epistles, or the book of Revelation, speak to the idea of being spiritually ready, as opposed to physically ready.

 

I see nothing wrong with making a few plans and preparations, about food storage, medications, water, weather protection and the like - even if believers were to find themselves in the midst of the great tribulation, it would still be good to be as able as possible, to help others.

 

However, being up on knowing scripture (so as to know how to live and not be deceived), being thankful, charitable, worshipful, prayerful, etc. is what the bible indicates our focus to be. We are to be found doing the Masters will when He comes.

 

I recommend 1 John 2 as a short refresher course. Thanks for your reply, Last Daze, and thanks for reading my post.

 

 

I agree without a doubt that being spiritually ready is of the utmost importance.  Being physically ready is going to depend on how one decides to respond to the "worship or die" ultimatum.  Some can't or don't want to leave the population centers.  Even those who are able to evade the ultimatum need to be spiritually ready because after the two witnesses are killed, and the plagues subside, people will be saying "peace and safety" and the temptation to "reintegrate" will be strong.

[Rothman]

From what I have heard there is no rapture.

We have different beliefs than other Christians but you could also be right. If there is rapture then you all could be right.

[other one]

If there is a rapthre, I have my tickets ready and my spiritual bags packed.......   and if there is no rapture, I have the Holy Spirit to get me through.

[Servant of the Lion]

It appears that there are some passionate people in this thread... so in the interest of not stepping on any toes, the only personal opinion I will offer is that I do believe in a pretrib rapture, but I also believe that we may not escape persecution, or that it may come in a different form. While I do not think the U.S. Christians have problems anywhere near what is happening in the Middle East and India right now, we are seeing situations where the media is covering Westboro and ignoring the Christians who live a life of loving and serving others. We are not allowed to pray or bring Bibles to some schools, or jobs. I was told that if I identified myself as a Christian I would be denied a promotion at work, and though they would never say that was the reason when I got the denial, I was warned that it would be "Very unwise" to bring it up. (I did not get the promotion). We are not being killed here yet, but the enemy is hard at work none the less to push people away from Christ, and I imagine this is only the beginning. I in no way bring this up to compare it to what is happening in the Middle East. Those people are dealing with the worst humanity has to offer, and still they die with the Lord's name on their lips. I am not sure how many who have not known that level of suffering here in the U.S. could do that. I cannot say that I would not be shaking in fear were I in that situation. I say pray, for their sake, that there is a pretrib rapture. Noah, and Lot both were saved before great destruction was done by God, pray that he does the same for us, but be prepared for the worst if that does not happen soon.

 

I only wish to add a couple things to this thread.

 

I have mentioned this in another thread.

Matthew 24:26 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but my Father only."

This is not a perfect defense against trying to predict when the rapture would occur. This line of scripture, is also (I have read) a Jewish idiom that has two meanings.

 

The first refers to a wedding when after building a house, the Groom would wait for his father to inspect the house, when he felt the house was good, he would tell the Groom to get get his bride. Now in that sense, yes it makes sense, we are the bride, The Lord said there are many mansions and he goes to prepare a place for us, and he cant know when he will return because his father has to approve the house first.

 

The second way this is used though, actually points to an exact time. More specifically, the Feast of Trumpets. The Jewish calendar relies on the new moon to begin a new month. The Feast of Trumpets is the only feast that is not on a set day, but rather will not start until the new moon in the proper season. The day the feast begins is therefore unpredictable at that time, only the Father would know when Israel would return, when the Feast would begin, etc. I wish to further back this by saying that Peter spoke of this in ... Thessalonians I believe, when he spoke of the end times and that he did not need to speak of feasts and seasons because they already knew them. They were part of their culture, and they knew how the Feasts would work and when. (My quoting may not have been exact on that, my apologies if it wasn't).

 

Why, would Christ use an idiom that has two meanings, if he only intended for one of them? That does not seem like something that Christ in all his perfection would do, that he would intentionally leave room to be responsible for leading us astray. I have to conclude then, that he intended for both meanings to be true. The feast itself lasts for eight days (It lasts a week but it took two days to light the signal fires to let all of Israel know it started in those times) so you still cannot predict the day or hour, but you have a general sense of when it may happen. Here are another couple odd coincidences below, that I read about but ultimately cannot yet prove though I believe that if you have time to kill you could do it yourself.

 

1. Using the Jewish calendar, and counting up Daniel's 70th week (Assuming the Fig tree is Israel, because it does not always represent Israel in the Bible), the date you will get for the Lord's return, is the Feast of Trumpets this year.

 

2. If you want signs in the Heavens, we will see the first super blood moon in a very long time, the last one, was supposedly during the crucifixion(I have not had the time to do the math and confirm this one, nor do I have the resources). That will also happen during the Feast of Trumpets this year.

 

The second fact I wanted to add in, is that 666 is the number you get when you convert the name "Nero" whom was the Roman Emperor at the time into number using the... the name escapes me. The numbering system the Hebrews used to number words... in any case, the sum of the name "Nero" adds up to 666. Which seems like a big coincidence. I personally do not believe Nero is the mark. I have my own ideas about what that is but prefer not to start another debate.

 

Anyway, I am off to bed. I hope this gets people thinking and gets other people who choose not to search for a season or watch for signs of his coming to think of a better argument than Matthew 24:26. If you did not have that one line of scripture, what would your defense be?

 

I love you all, and will pray for clarity and guidance in these troubled times for all of us sojourners.