Things the Bible does not say about the End Times

[Marilyn C]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2015 at 12:04 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times

 

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

 

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath 

of God.

 

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

 

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.
7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

 

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

 

10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

 

11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

 

12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

 

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

 

 

Hi Omegaman,

1. False. There will be a rapture of the Church before the tribulation and Gt. trib.

2. True. The 7 year period is Daniel`s last `one week`  of 7 years.

3. True. Holy Spirit is omnipresent.

4. False. The Bible does refer to the Gt. trib, as God`s wrath.

5. False. God`s word does tell us that Jesus will return for His Church secretly.

6. True. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father so He knows and has told His Body that they know full well.

7.  True. The Bible does not say the Jesus will return any minute.

8. True. Jesus returns to deliver Israel and that will be as a thief in the night for they are in darkness.

9. True. There will be believers in the tribulation, but not part of the church, the Body of Christ.

10. True. Our hope is to be with Jesus.

11. True. Jesus coming as a thief will be at the end of the trib.

12. False. God`s word NEVER said that the church, will return to earth at the end of the trib, or any time.

13. False. God`s word tells us that the 144,000 Israelites, sealed, appointed, are priests and as such go and teach that the good news that the Messiah is coming to establish His kingdom rule.

 

Note I have  8 True and 5 False. I think we agree on quite a lot there bro.

 

As each topic requires more than one scripture to bring clarification, you may want to bring up which one for us to discuss in more detail.

God bless bro, as you seek His truth.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

OK, I see there are a few replies again I will get to the first two, pretty soon I hope, thanks for the interest and the praiseworthy demeanor.

Edit: Sorry siblings, I have already started a reply, but I had to cut it off. I have an appointment in Worthy Chat, so I will have to pick this up later.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Omegaman,

1. False. There will be a rapture of the Church before the tribulation and Gt. trib.

2. True. The 7 year period is Daniel`s last `one week`  of 7 years.

3. True. Holy Spirit is omnipresent.

4. False. The Bible does refer to the Gt. trib, as God`s wrath.

5. False. God`s word does tell us that Jesus will return for His Church secretly.

6. True. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father so He knows and has told His Body that they know full well.

7.  True. The Bible does not say the Jesus will return any minute.

8. True. Jesus returns to deliver Israel and that will be as a thief in the night for they are in darkness.

9. True. There will be believers in the tribulation, but not part of the church, the Body of Christ.

10. True. Our hope is to be with Jesus.

11. True. Jesus coming as a thief will be at the end of the trib.

12. False. God`s word NEVER said that the church, will return to earth at the end of the trib, or any time.

13. False. God`s word tells us that the 144,000 Israelites, sealed, appointed, are priests and as such go and teach that the good news that the Messiah is coming to establish His kingdom rule.

 

Note I have  8 True and 5 False. I think we agree on quite a lot there bro.

 

As each topic requires more than one scripture to bring clarification, you may want to bring up which one for us to discuss in more detail.

God bless bro, as you seek His truth.

Yeah Marilyn, I agree, they need their own posts, I will do that when I resume later.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 3:29 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah Marilyn, I agree, they need their own posts, I will do that when I resume later.

Hi Omegaman,

No hurry, however I thought I would start off with an easy one. You said -

12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

I said I don`t believe that God`s word says the church will come with Jesus at His second coming. In quite a few place Jesus says that it is His holy angels that come with Him. No where does Jesus say that the church comes with Him.

` When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the Holy Angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man....comes in His own glory, and in His Father`s glory and in the glory of the Holy angels..` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Omegaman,

No hurry, however I thought I would start off with an easy one. You said:

12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

I said I don`t believe that God`s word says the church will come with Jesus at His second coming. In quite a few place Jesus says that it is His holy angels that come with Him. No where does Jesus say that the church comes with Him.

` When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the Holy Angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man....comes in His own glory, and in His Father`s glory and in the glory of the Holy angels..` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

Hi Marilyn. I was just checking the thread, with the intention to state that I was sorry that I have not been able to find the time to return to reply to you and charisenexcelsis. Actually I started to reply to him almost 2-1/2 days ago, but ran out of time and had to hide the post until I can get around to picking up where I left off.  The when I can here to apologize for the delay, I saw your "easy one". So, while I am here (past my bedtime) I thought I would reply to the post I quoted above.

First off, when I said:
"The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. " that is not me speaking, I am just quoting what pre-tribulation rapturists frequently say is the distinction between the rapture and the 2nd coming, my point was that there is (in my opinion) no time span of years specified between the rapture and His revelation after the Tribulation.

However, you do raise an interesting question, does Jesus come with His church, or just with His angels?

I just did some Bible searches and internet searches to find who comes with Him. Yes Angels do, but post-tribbers believe that much anyway. because Jesus said that is who was coming when He comes to gather the elect after the tribulation. So that part is not an area of disagreement.

When I searched the net, all I was able to find about believers coming with Him was from pre-tribulation rapturists, or others quoting them.

Let's not lose sight of what I am saying that you are objecting to. Remember what my thread is about, things that the Bible does not say about the end times. Item 12, where you are quoting here is my contention, that the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. Angels or people, it does not matter, I still contend that there is not lengthy interval between the rapture and His return to earth. To invalidate my point 12, you would need to find a verse that proves there is a rapture previous to the great tribulation, otherwise the point stands.

However what else do we know that might shed some light?

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Rev 20:6

“The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as waters that cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14), 

and “men shall leave their swords and their plowshares, their spears and the pruning hooks, and nations shall not lift up sword against nation.” Isaiah 2:4

Now, it seems to me, that there is a millennium spoken of, and that follows His 2nd coming, which is after the tribulation, just as He said.

It also appears that those in the first resurrection (who according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17) are caught up first, THEN the living in Christ who are alive at the time, go to join them in the air.

It all harmonizes perfectly,

• there is a period of 7 years,
• and half way through that, there is great tribulation,
• immediately after which Jesus comes with angels,
• gathers the elect, 
• the dead in Christ first, 
• then the living, 
• and he comes to earth. 

No contradictions, no straining to make it work, no need to create events that the Bible does not say (which is THE POINT OF MY THREAD) and I am certain you recognize all of those events I just mentioned.

Now, when I looked in the Bible for who is coming with, I found some things:

Jude 1:14 says He comes with his hagiais (holy)

1 Thessalonians 3:13 says with all the hagion, generally translated as saints, but just means holy (ones)

Zechariah 14:4-5 says: "4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!" There it is the qadosh (holy) who come with Him. (looks a lot like Rev 12:13 to 17, by the way, where the earth helps the fleeing Jews escape to the wilderness for 3-1/3 times, then the dragon goes after the rest to make war with those who hold to the testimony of Jesus.) 

In Daniel 8:24, there the qadosh are destroyed, the NASB says it like this:
"His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.
Should we think that is angels? I use this to illustrate that when the Bible speaks of the Holy, it often means people!

So, as far as I know, I cannot prove that the Church comes back with Him. If I run into such a specific verse I will post it. Never the less somehow they get to reign with Him during the millenium here on earth. We know that He does come to earth to war with His enemies, after the great tribulation, and we know that some holy people will with Him in His millennial reign. So, while it might be a bit of an argument from silence to say that part of the army Jesus has with him is the church than He caught up in a post-trib rapture, it it no less of an argument from silence to suggest that holy people from heaven, (presumably believers) got down to earth at some later time, if Jesus did not bring them with Him when He returned.

That is all I have at least for now, on your "easy one". Thanks, good question!

[Revelation Man]

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times 

theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even 

attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. 

 

What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask 

themselves, why they believe certain things, that the 

Bible never says.

 

So basically, in between the lines I am asking: 

 

If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?

 

Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?

 

So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? 

Following is a short list:

 

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, 

which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

It most certainly does. 2 Thess. 2 says the DEPARTURE of the Church comes BEFORE the DOTL. Rev. 19 shows the Church coming back with Jesus while the Beast is STILL ALIVE on earth. Rev. chapters 4 and 5 show the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. Paul tells us there was a MYSTERY, which means {MUSTERION} Secret by God's Silence in so many words. Why would it have been a secret ? Because it wasn't about Israel per se who stays on earth as THE WHEAT with the Wicked Tares until the very end, whereas the Church is taken back to the Fathers mansion, just like Jesus stated, if I  go and prepare a place for you I will come and receive you unto myself. So its there.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

 

Yes it does........it also doesn't SPECIFICALLY call the Church Age a 2000 some odd year Tribulation, period, but its there also. Jesus stated that the Church would ALWAYS HAVE Tribulation. So that means the Church Age is 2000 some odd years of Tribulation, therefore when John references the Saints that came out of the great tribulation in Rev. 7 hes speaking about THE CHURCH that was RAPTURED (pre trib) in Rev. 7:9-17 as in 2000>7. Once the Church is Raptured, then we will have the 70th week where Israel must repent. During this 7 year period Gentiles will also come to Christ, they are the Martyrs seen in Seal #5, so since they are the REMNANT CHURCH on earth, they will have TRIBULATION for all 7 years, Jesus PROMISED CONTINUAL TRIBULATION, so it is a 2000 some odd year Tribulation period called the Church Age followed by a 7 year Tribulation period called the 70th week,  and the last 3.5 years will be the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER SEEN !! The later doesn't stop the FORMER  from being Tribulation, it just means its the worst ever period as we have been told, up to 4 to 5 billion people will die. The Church Age saw MILLIONS of Christians die also. The 70th week will be tribulation also, God/Jesus cant lie, he said we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION. 

What happens is men have agendas, and they don't think things through, they try to prove points and get hung up on minutia. I used to think many things I was told {MEN'S TRADITIONS} were correct until I delved in deep. S we can all get in a rut so to speak.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the 

Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 

Correct.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or 

invisibly to take His Church.

Rev. 14:14 says EXACTLY THAT, Jesus will Harvest the Church from a CLOUD........He Harvest Israel {144,000 Jews which means ALL Israel 3-5 million Jews} on Mt Zion, they are THE WHEAT, that grows with the Wicked Tares who are Harvested in verses 18-20 by being placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath, bundled into the Grave to be burned in 1000 years at the Second Death. 

Rev. 14:14 is a sorta SOLILOQUY where Jesus Harvests the Church from a cloud.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the

day or hour) of His coming.

It says EXACTLY THAT.....For not trying to prove anything this sure seems like an ANTI-RAPTURE THEORY Lecture. (Smile) Jesus said no man will know the day nor the hour. That has to be the Matt. 24:36-51 Rapture because it can't be the Second Coming because everyone can count 1260 days.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 

It sure does, Jesus' return is described as imminent, now the Second Coming I AGREE does not say this, but you of course are CONFLATING the two brother.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in 

the night for His church.

Correct, this is about the DOTL coming upon mankind. Its about JUDGMENT FALLING.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great 

tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even 

death.

It says the Church will not be in the Tribulation period. It says the REMNANT CHURCH will be in the Tribulation period along with Israel {Wheat} and all the WICKED TARES who have followed Satan. 

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.

I haven't even studied the non believers of the Raptures understanding of what THEY SEE that this means. Jesus is the Blessed hope, I am sure you guys see something most people don't here, but since I don't know your point here I will just refrain from answering.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

 

Again, this means the Judgment of God falls like a thief in the night. Its about the Judgment of Christ, it starts with the Seals.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

 

Jesus stated he spoke to the Disciples in parables so the world hearing would not UNDERSTAND and seeing would not SEE !! The bible shows the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened, it shows the Church returning with Christ in Rev. 19. It speaks about the Dead and the Living being taken to be with Christ in the air. Its only bad conclusions, IMHO,  that get us to other observations, we are supposed to be able to discern these things with the holy spirit. The world can't see them  of course but Satan never stops lying to us, of course.

On 5/27/2015 at 9:34 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

 

CORRECT....Its a Metaphor for the Jews who repent and Flee Judea. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Omegaman 3.0]

Thanks for the reply Revelation Man, I quickly glanced over it, and hope to respond with some depth, but be certain, that it will take me some time to do so. When I do, I will probably isolate one of your thoughts or repsonses at a time, I just don't have the time to do it any other way. For now, I think I am going to have to put you reply in a queue and get to other posters first, sort of first come, first served style.

If it get to be too much more me to deal with, I will lock the thread from further posting, so I can get caught up, hopefully it will not have to come to that. I hope I have not bitten off for than I can chew here. I think I will be able to deal with substance just fine, but not sure of the quantity I can tolerate.

I am certainly willing yo learn from you and others, I am not interested into just defending my position, and I started this thread with the idea, that others might example their own assumptions, and see if they are actually scriptural, and not merely ideas which have become popular in the last 200 years.

Again, thanks for the input.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hi Marilyn. I was just checking the thread, with the intention to state that I was sorry that I have not been able to find the time to return to reply to you and charisenexcelsis. Actually I started to reply to him almost 2-1/2 days ago, but ran out of time and had to hide the post until I can get around to picking up where I left off.  The when I can here to apologize for the delay, I saw your "easy one". So, while I am here (past my bedtime) I thought I would reply to the post I quoted above.

First off, when I said:
"The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. " that is not me speaking, I am just quoting what pre-tribulation rapturists frequently say is the distinction between the rapture and the 2nd coming, my point was that there is (in my opinion) no time span of years specified between the rapture and His revelation after the Tribulation.

However, you do raise an interesting question, does Jesus come with His church, or just with His angels?

I just did some Bible searches and internet searches to find who comes with Him. Yes Angels do, but post-tribbers believe that much anyway. because Jesus said that is who was coming when He comes to gather the elect after the tribulation. So that part is not an area of disagreement.

When I searched the net, all I was able to find about believers coming with Him was from pre-tribulation rapturists, or others quoting them.

 

That is all I have at least for now, on your "easy one". Thanks, good question!

Hi Omegaman,

I did realise that you were just stating what others said. I should have clarified that. Thanks for your answer to the `easy one.` Yes pretribbers believe the church will come with Jesus but have no scriptural proof other than `holy ones,` which have been interpreted as `saints` by some versions, whereas it can mean `angels or saints,` thus more proof is needed. And who can go past what Jesus said, or even Paul in the scriptures I quoted which tells us the holy angels come with the Lord.

So does that pose a difficulty with you regarding 1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18? (Actually reading your notes I do see what you think.)

I`m building up to the biggie question of the pre rapture. And thanks for all your notes which I am looking at in detail.

BTW no hurry, just as you are able. And of course others would like to hear from you too.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

So, as far as I know, I cannot prove that the Church comes back with Him. If I run into such a specific verse I will post it. Never the less somehow they get to reign with Him during the millenium here on earth. We know that He does come to earth to war with His enemies, after the great tribulation, and we know that some holy people will with Him in His millennial reign. So, while it might be a bit of an argument from silence to say that part of the army Jesus has with him is the church than He caught up in a post-trib rapture, it it no less of an argument from silence to suggest that holy people from heaven, (presumably believers) got down to earth at some later time, if Jesus did not bring them with Him when He returned.

That is all I have at least for now, on your "easy one". Thanks, good question!

Can you prove that Omegaman? `On earth?` Where do you read that the church will reign ON earth in the millennium? 

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Can you prove that Omegaman? `On earth?` Where do you read that the church will reign ON earth in the millennium? 

I thought that was so established, that it did not need saying, lol, and it is still off point, but what makes you think it is anywhere else?