Different Raptures

[Larry 2]

As I see it, the two throne scenes in Rev 4 & 5 are before and after the Word became flesh, establishing His worthiness to open the seals since He overcame.

 

As far as being raised immortal, I can only find where it happens once for those who are Christ's and that is at His coming.

 

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,  1 Corinthians 15:23

 

Hi again, I hope the following post can show the time event differences.

 

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

When was everything being shown John to be hereafter?

John had been transported as it were to the day Jesus would take the Mat 28:18, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. It has to be evident at this present time He is not doing that as we see nations ruling in usurpation if He were using that power in the vision viewpoint of  writing the things which are of Rev 1:19 which are events of this present time.

That day is the Lord’s Day of Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. The things which shall be hereafter, or the time beginning with the Lord’s Day is identical with Rev 4:1.

 

It is there in the future John sees the two thrones; the one throne being set up of Rev 4:2 for Jesus that will begin His rule as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

And the throne of God our Father who has the book .

Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

I think what you may be thinking of is below, and to me this is still prior to Jesus’ reign.

Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Would Jesus have had a throne when sitting

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

I may be saying all this in a way that just messes it all up for you, but thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

[Last Daze]

 

Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Would Jesus have had a throne when sitting

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

I may be saying all this in a way that just messes it all up for you, but thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

 

It doesn't mess it up for me.  I just see it differently.

 

Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?

 

And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:3

 

The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  That's accomplished via a before and after scene.  Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other.

 

Before:  Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;  Revelation 4:5

 

After:  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

 

I think it has something to do with this:

 

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  John 16:7

 

Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?  Revelation is not strictly chronological.

[Sister]

 

Hi Larry

 

Such a good post and many things to go over carefully.  Unfortunately I don't agree with some things brother and I'll explain why.

Back to John.

Rev 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

When is the Lord’s Day? It is not Saturday or Sunday, it is Jesus’ thousand year reign as Almighty God.

 

Yes that's the Lords day also, but if we read further, we can understand what he means exactly;

 

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:11   And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

 Revelation 5:12   Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

 

This is the Lords day that John was speaking about, when the Lamb was the only one worthy to open the seals.  It was this day John was taken up to heaven in the spirit.

 

 

 

At this point John is observing things in heaven prior to the sequence of events of the tribulation we read of in the index of Revelation Chapter Six.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 

Who are these saints?

 

 

God never refers to his saints as beasts. Nations yes, Kingdoms yes, The Son of Perdition yes, but never the saints. 

The saints are sometimes referred to as creatures, but never beasts.

 

 

 

Rev 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God (Some bibles say redeemed men to God) by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Again realize that these are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation.

 

 

Yes, they were in heaven before the tribulation, but to be exact they were there when John saw the vision.  That was around 70AD.

John witnessed the Lamb opening up the Seals.  He also witnessed the witnesses who were there.  John was present in the Spirit when this big event actually took place.

 

The twenty-four elders represent the dead in Christ who rose first for being faithful unto death (Rev 2:10)

 

They were not being tried, they had already overcome!  They were there, not just in the spirit like John was, but were really there,.... and if they (the 24 elders) were redeemed from men, then they are men who have been risen already.

When they were raised, I don't know?  It would have to have happened all at once when the last apostle died.

Well John was the last apostle alive from that lot, because he was the youngest.  Is he one of them?  Did he see himself there? or did he miss out because he was needed here on earth to record these things?  He was very much loved by the Lord and he didn't mention that he recognised anyone, probably because they all look different. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, so those 24 elders would be in a perfect changed spiritual body.

 

These are the questions that have rattled my mind for a very long time, and I was hoping somebody would go there.

 

James 1:18   Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

Please consider that the apostles are the foundation on which was built upon the corner stone.  They are the chosen vessels made of gold.  The creme of the crop.

It must be them there.  They are a kind of firstfruit with Christ.  They are separate, not included in the other resurrection, because they are the foundation and they were with Christ from the beginning.  Because of them, the truth was spread.  It was their labour, ...their blood, sweat and tears alongside Christ and after him.

 

There were 12 apostles who were chosen by the Lord, and there must be another 12 apostles included in there...  We just don't know who they are yet.

We only see these 24 elders there, no one else at this stage, because the rest come another 2000 odd years later.

 

There are more firstfruits to come in the mass resurrection at the Coming.  These firstfruits are the 144,000.  It is clear.  They come just before the rest.

So there are two groups yes, the 144,000 who followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes....(Christians), are the first group, and the second group are all the rest  who died in Christ.

 

 

 

and the second group are the four beasts (Rev 4:6) that remained unto the coming of the Lord in the air for them, and were rewarded by being kept from the temptation (or trials & trouble) to come upon all the world by patiently keeping the word of God (Rev 3:10). 

 

 

The four beasts are created spiritual creatures like the angels.

They are around the throne day and night, continually with God.

They were created for this purpose.  They are not men, nor does it say they were redeemed from men.

 

Please brother, can you look into this?

God bless.

[Larry 2]

 

 

Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Would Jesus have had a throne when sitting

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

I may be saying all this in a way that just messes it all up for you, but thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

 

It doesn't mess it up for me.  I just see it differently.

 

Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?

 

And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:3

 

The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  That's accomplished via a before and after scene.  Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other.

 

Before:  Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;  Revelation 4:5

 

After:  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

 

I think it has something to do with this:

 

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  John 16:7

 

Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?  Revelation is not strictly chronological.

 

Last Daze - Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?

Larry 2 - Jesus is sitting on His own newly set throne in Rev 4:2 among the 24 elders (Rev 4:4) and 4 living ones (Rev 4:6).

I need to ask if you think Jesus is not the One sitting on His own throne here?

Rev 4:2   And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.  This is Jesus.

The 24 elders confirm that Jesus is the One sitting on this throne in Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

Last Daze - And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:3

Larry 2 – Oh but there is! Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  This is Jesus.

 

Back to Jesus’ throne of Rev 4:2

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This is still Jesus.

 

Last Daze - The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  That's accomplished via a before and after scene.  Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other.

 

Before:  Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;  Revelation 4:5

 

After:  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

Larry 2 – I do agree that context is establishing Jesus as the One worthy to open the book in His Father’s hand, but it goes further than that also.

We notice that the Holy Spirit (The seven spirits) went into all the earth leading men into truth about Jesus, and even here He is expressing Jesus as that fullness of God. A dear brother in the Lord, Gene Hawkins made the following comment. “Seven horns and seven eyes" are a special reference to the power of Christ and the full wisdom that He has.

 

I would also draw your attention to Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne.

 

Last Daze – I think it has something to do with this:

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  John 16:7

Larry 2 – Where did Jesus go? To sit with His Father in His Father’s throne.

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

Last Daze - Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?  Revelation is not strictly chronological.

Larry 2 – You are correct, especially beginning with Revelation Chapter Six where we find an index of future judgment.

BUT, everything from Rev 4:1 is the future viewpoint of “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,” and this is from the moment that Jesus begins His reign of a thousand years.

Blessings

[angels4u]

 

 

 

The last trump has nothing to do with preceding trumpets.   That is a misnomer.   Paul was using a reference to the "last trump"  in reference to Rosh Hashanah or what we call "the feast of trumpets."  There is another trumpet after the last trumpet, known as the great trumpet that is blown on Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement.

My understanding was that the trump is not a trumpet blast spoken of here, but an illustration of Jesus’ voice in magnitude.

 

Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

 

I am interested in your thoughts of a later trumpet blown on the Day of Atonement after this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality according to 1 Cor 15:53. . Is it a trumpet or voice, and what is its significance? Thanks. 

 

 

 

Hi Larry,

 

vs 53 refers to 2 different classes of believers:

 

The corruptible refer to the people who died and have returned to dust.They will put on incorruption. We who are still alive in body will put on immortality.

 

This last  trumpet  does not mean the end of this world but will sound when Jesus meet us in the air. Then the dead will be raised to incorruptible and we shall be changed.

What a moment that we will be ,when the dead who are now dust (believers)shall be alive...

 

Dear sister, to me the time of these prophesies are at the end of the millennium,

and death will be no more. What do you think?

 

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this

mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying

that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 

 

Larry, do you think we are living in the Millennium?

 

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Would Jesus have had a throne when sitting

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

I may be saying all this in a way that just messes it all up for you, but thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

 

It doesn't mess it up for me.  I just see it differently.

 

Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?

 

And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:3

 

The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  That's accomplished via a before and after scene.  Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other.

 

Before:  Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;  Revelation 4:5

 

After:  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

 

I think it has something to do with this:

 

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  John 16:7

 

Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?  Revelation is not strictly chronological.

 

Last Daze - Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?

Larry 2 - Jesus is sitting on His own newly set throne in Rev 4:2 among the 24 elders (Rev 4:4) and 4 living ones (Rev 4:6).

I need to ask if you think Jesus is not the One sitting on His own throne here?

Rev 4:2   And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.  This is Jesus.

The 24 elders confirm that Jesus is the One sitting on this throne in Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

Last Daze - And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:3

Larry 2 – Oh but there is! Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  This is Jesus.

 

Back to Jesus’ throne of Rev 4:2

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This is still Jesus.

 

Last Daze - The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  That's accomplished via a before and after scene.  Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other.

 

Before:  Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;  Revelation 4:5

 

After:  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

Larry 2 – I do agree that context is establishing Jesus as the One worthy to open the book in His Father’s hand, but it goes further than that also.

We notice that the Holy Spirit (The seven spirits) went into all the earth leading men into truth about Jesus, and even here He is expressing Jesus as that fullness of God. A dear brother in the Lord, Gene Hawkins made the following comment. “Seven horns and seven eyes" are a special reference to the power of Christ and the full wisdom that He has.

 

I would also draw your attention to Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne.

 

Last Daze – I think it has something to do with this:

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  John 16:7

Larry 2 – Where did Jesus go? To sit with His Father in His Father’s throne.

Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

Last Daze - Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3?  Revelation is not strictly chronological.

Larry 2 – You are correct, especially beginning with Revelation Chapter Six where we find an index of future judgment.

BUT, everything from Rev 4:1 is the future viewpoint of “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,” and this is from the moment that Jesus begins His reign of a thousand years.

Blessings

 

 

We're just waaaay too far apart on the way we see it to have any meaningful discussion.

[Larry 2]

 

Sister - Such a good post and many things to go over carefully.  Unfortunately I don't agree with some things brother and I'll explain why.

Larry 2  Quote

Back to John.

Rev 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

When is the Lord’s Day? It is not Saturday or Sunday, it is Jesus’ thousand year reign as Almighty God.

 

Sister - Yes that's the Lords day also, but if we read further, we can understand what he means exactly;

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:11   And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

 Revelation 5:12   Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

 This is the Lords day that John was speaking about, when the Lamb was the only one worthy to open the seals.  It was this day John was taken up to heaven in the spirit.

 

Larry 2 – I agree completely. Until John was taken to heaven in Spirit, his writing and revelation were of that which was, and the things that are during this present age (Rev 1:8) that pertain to the Church and its judgment shown us in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. The fullness of the Gentiles is complete and the scene changes to the time when Jesus takes that all power given Him by our Father told us in Mat 28:18. Other references to this future time are “The Day of the Lord, and In That Day.”

  

Larry 2  Quote

At this point John is observing things in heaven prior to the sequence of events of the tribulation we read of in the index of Revelation Chapter Six.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 

Who are these saints?

 

Sister - God never refers to his saints as beasts. Nations yes, Kingdoms yes, The Son of Perdition yes, but never the saints. The saints are sometimes referred to as creatures, but never beasts.

 

Larry 2 - I’ve heard different reasons John may have referred to these special full overcomers that patiently kept the word of God as beasts, but every one of them in my opinion is purely speculation. I do like the way Ezekiel referred to these saints as Living Creatures which many newer versions of the Bible title them, and others as Living Ones.

 

Regardless, these Living Creatures are in complete harmony with Jesus, and instrumental in the judgments as the seals are opened for instance. Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

 

Then in Rev 5:9 we read of them singing with the 24 elders: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Some Bibles use the word “Men” instead of “Us” referring to the Living Creatures due to preconceived ideas of what they are as if they are not the redeemed themselves. They and the 24 elders are the only ones present with Jesus when He receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. These constitute the first part of the first resurrection I refer to as the Pre-trib rapture.

 

Larry 2  Quote

Rev 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God (Some bibles say redeemed men to God) by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Again realize that these are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation.

 

Sister - Yes, they were in heaven before the tribulation, but to be exact they were there when John saw the vision.  That was around 70AD.

John witnessed the Lamb opening up the Seals.  He also witnessed the witnesses who were there.  John was present in the Spirit when this big event actually took place.

 

Larry 2 - Yes, in our time we know John wrote of those in Revelation Chapters Four & Five around 70 AD, but as I have attempted to show that John was caught forward in time in Spirit to the Lord’s Day, that future time of 2000 years plus when Jesus will take over as the Almighty. Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.  In mat 28:18 we read of Jesus having all power given Him: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Being in the position of the Almighty is about as much all power as it gets.

 

Larry 2  Quote

The twenty-four elders represent the dead in Christ who rose first for being faithful unto death (Rev 2:10)

 

Sister - They were not being tried, they had already overcome!  They were there, not just in the spirit like John was, but were really there,.... and if they (the 24 elders) were redeemed from men, then they are men who have been risen already.

When they were raised, I don't know?  It would have to have happened all at once when the last apostle died.

 

Larry 2 – Saints whose bodies sleep are alive in spirit with the Lord in heaven the moment they die.

2 Cor 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Cor 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We which are alive shall be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thes 4:16-17.

 

Sister -  Well John was the last apostle alive from that lot, because he was the youngest.  Is he one of them?  Did he see himself there? or did he miss out because he was needed here on earth to record these things?  He was very much loved by the Lord and he didn't mention that he recognized anyone, probably because they all look different. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, so those 24 elders would be in a perfect changed spiritual body.

 

These are the questions that have rattled my mind for a very long time, and I was hoping somebody would go there.

 

Larry 2 – Mat 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Dear sister, I do not know the extent of this reward to the twelve apostles operating as judges over the world during the millennium. I’ve heard different opinions such as them being part of the Kingdom before the Church, and I read of John the Baptist below and he says of himself he does not qualify to be in the bride of Christ as the friend of Jesus.

 

Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Joh  3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

If you have some ideas on this I’m sure willing to listen.

 

Sister - James 1:18   Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

Please consider that the apostles are the foundation on which was built upon the corner stone.  They are the chosen vessels made of gold.  The creme of the crop.

It must be them there.  They are a kind of firstfruit with Christ.  They are separate, not included in the other resurrection, because they are the foundation and they were with Christ from the beginning.  Because of them, the truth was spread.  It was their labour, ...their blood, sweat and tears alongside Christ and after him.

 

There were 12 apostles who were chosen by the Lord, and there must be another 12 apostles included in there...  We just don't know who they are yet.

We only see these 24 elders there, no one else at this stage, because the rest come another 2000 odd years later.

 

There are more firstfruits to come in the mass resurrection at the Coming.  These firstfruits are the 144,000.  It is clear.  They come just before the rest.

So there are two groups yes, the 144,000 who followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes....(Christians), are the first group, and the second group are all the rest  who died in Christ.

 

Larry 2 – I’m of the opinion that the 144,000 are first fruits of Israel to Jesus.

I’m sort of in the same boat when considering the apostles; I am just not sure at this time.

 

 

Larry 2  Quote

and the second group are the four beasts (Rev 4:6) that remained unto the coming of the Lord in the air for them, and were rewarded by being kept from the temptation (or trials & trouble) to come upon all the world by patiently keeping the word of God (Rev 3:10). 

 

Sister - The four beasts are created spiritual creatures like the angels.

They are around the throne day and night, continually with God.

They were created for this purpose.  They are not men, nor does it say they were redeemed from men.

 

Larry 2 - Again, the 4 living creatures say they are redeemed in the following scriptures.

Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts AND four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

To believe the 24 elders are redeemed, the 4 Living creatures sing right along with them having that same claim.

 

My thoughts – God bless you dear Sister in Jesus’ name.  

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

The last trump has nothing to do with preceding trumpets.   That is a misnomer.   Paul was using a reference to the "last trump"  in reference to Rosh Hashanah or what we call "the feast of trumpets."  There is another trumpet after the last trumpet, known as the great trumpet that is blown on Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement.

My understanding was that the trump is not a trumpet blast spoken of here, but an illustration of Jesus’ voice in magnitude.

 

Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

 

I am interested in your thoughts of a later trumpet blown on the Day of Atonement after this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality according to 1 Cor 15:53. . Is it a trumpet or voice, and what is its significance? Thanks. 

 

 

 

Hi Larry,

 

vs 53 refers to 2 different classes of believers:

 

The corruptible refer to the people who died and have returned to dust.They will put on incorruption. We who are still alive in body will put on immortality.

 

This last  trumpet  does not mean the end of this world but will sound when Jesus meet us in the air. Then the dead will be raised to incorruptible and we shall be changed.

What a moment that we will be ,when the dead who are now dust (believers)shall be alive...

 

Dear sister, to me the time of these prophesies are at the end of the millennium,

and death will be no more. What do you think?

 

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this

mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying

that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 

 

Larry, do you think we are living in the Millennium?

 

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

 

 

No I do not believe we are living in the millennium at this time. If you are asking if I think we will be alive during the millennium I would say yes, but it will be with Jesus in heaven reigning with Him over the earth.

 

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth. 

 

 

Thanks for the question.

[Ezra]

 

All the saints will be gathered at one and the same time and transformed, while those who died in Christ will be reunited with their glorious, immortal bodies.

What makes you think so? How are some possibly with Jesus before the tribulation, and others of the church arrive in heaven out of great tribulation? Thanks for your reply.

 

I don't believe I said anything about anyone going through the Great Tribulation.  The saints are ALL caught up to Heaven BEFORE that happens.  God has not appointed us to wrath.

[angels4u]

 

 

 

 

 

The last trump has nothing to do with preceding trumpets.   That is a misnomer.   Paul was using a reference to the "last trump"  in reference to Rosh Hashanah or what we call "the feast of trumpets."  There is another trumpet after the last trumpet, known as the great trumpet that is blown on Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement.

My understanding was that the trump is not a trumpet blast spoken of here, but an illustration of Jesus’ voice in magnitude.

 

Rev 1:10   I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

 

I am interested in your thoughts of a later trumpet blown on the Day of Atonement after this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality according to 1 Cor 15:53. . Is it a trumpet or voice, and what is its significance? Thanks. 

 

 

 

Hi Larry,

 

vs 53 refers to 2 different classes of believers:

 

The corruptible refer to the people who died and have returned to dust.They will put on incorruption. We who are still alive in body will put on immortality.

 

This last  trumpet  does not mean the end of this world but will sound when Jesus meet us in the air. Then the dead will be raised to incorruptible and we shall be changed.

What a moment that we will be ,when the dead who are now dust (believers)shall be alive...

 

Dear sister, to me the time of these prophesies are at the end of the millennium,

and death will be no more. What do you think?

 

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this

mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying

that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 

 

Larry, do you think we are living in the Millennium?

 

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

 

 

No I do not believe we are living in the millennium at this time. If you are asking if I think we will be alive during the millennium I would say yes, but it will be with Jesus in heaven reigning with Him over the earth.

 

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth. 

 

 

Thanks for the question.

 

Amen ! 

 

Romans 20:6

 

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.