Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

(BTW, strange that you should quote a source as being authoritative that doesn't follow your view about the Son of Perdition. You didn't even quote the commentary on the relevant verse, 2 Thes. 2:8, probably because it greatly disagreed with you.)

Negative Ghostrider.

The Expositor's Bible commentary does not disagree with me.  In fact they agree that it means "His other means of conquest" and it is not an immediate elimination - at that instance.

What they do say Jesus' parousia ends, is, the "diabolical program" - which is how they describe the Great Tribulation, which goes back to the Olivet Discourse, to which they have obviously linked to what Paul is talking about here, and Revelation 13:15-16 for the two laws which comprise said "diabolical program."

EBC on 2Th 2:8  "The splendor of his coming" is his other means of conquest. Probably "the appearance of his coming" does more justice to epiphaneia, since in the Pastoral Epistles it is practically equivalent to parousia as a name for his coming (1Tim 6:14; 2Tim 1:10; 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13). This "appearance" phase of the parousia differs from the "gathering"-- phase (v. 1). It concludes and climaxes the tribulation instead of beginning it. The visible presence of the Lord Jesus in the world will put an immediate stop to an accelerated diabolical program."

Again, what Paul is writing about is not done in a vacuum, and he does not address any OT pattern in 2Th 2:1-8; Paul lays out a sequence of events instead.

The basic list is:

• The Rebellion
• Man of lawlessness is revealed
• Second coming of our Lord
• Our being gathering to Him
  • Dead in Christ
  • Those who are alive and are left

And after incorporating a lot of the other things Paul lists, I come up with this refined sequence-of-events:

• The rebellion occurs
• Opposition and exaltation
• The “one” removed from the midst
• Setting himself up as God
• The man of lawlessness revealed
• Jesus comes
• Our being gathering to Him
  • Dead in Christ
  • Those who are alive and are left
• The man of lawlessness is undone
• He is done away with entirely.

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

EBC on 2Th 2:8..."The visible presence of the Lord Jesus in the world will put an immediate stop to an accelerated diabolical program."

Exactly: the Lord's appearance will put an immediate stop to the Son of Perdition, like I said. Not a stop after another 3 1/2 years, like you say.

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

...what Paul is writing about is not done in a vacuum, and he does not address any OT pattern in 2Th 2:1-8...

I never said he did. He does it elsewhere in his writings.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Exactly: the Lord's appearance will put an immediate stop to the Son of Perdition, like I said. Not a stop after another 3 1/2 years, like you say.

C'mon Bill, that's not what the Expositors said.

Now at some point we have to bury the animosity in this arguing back and forth and be intellectually honest.

Paul no more says the anti-Christ comes to an immediate end then when: Jesus shows John in the detailed parallel view of the one 'seven' where the midpoint abomination is revealed as the talking image (an idol who speaks!) of the man of lawlessness, and two laws - which make for the diabolical program the Expositors cite - which then creates the conditions for the Great Tribulation, after which, and being ended with Jesus' parousia, where we are gathered up in the Harvest - that the anti-Christ expires immediately.

Rather, between the winepress of God's Wrath, which comes in the very next verse - which has both elements of the 1st Trumpet: fire and blood; and the Bowl Judgments - which are last - are all the other thirds Trumpets and the 1st and 2nd Woes!  And the first Woe takes five months, and even after all that - the anti-Christ is still alive and kicking.  He doesn't meet his "end" until Armageddon, and even then - he STILL ISN'T KILLED, but is only captured, to be drug through death's graveyard scene in the spiritual realm, judged before God, and WHILE STILL ALIVE - IS THROWN INTO HELL.

The anti-Christ is not killed the instant Jesus returns.   That would not be fitting enough.  He needs to suffer, and suffer it all he will.  Thank God; he'll certainly deserve it.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Paul no more says the anti-Christ comes to an immediate end then when: Jesus shows John in the detailed parallel view of the one 'seven' where the midpoint abomination is revealed as the talking image (an idol who speaks!) of the man of lawlessness, and two laws - which make for the diabolical program the Expositors cite - which then creates the conditions for the Great Tribulation, after which, and being ended with Jesus' parousia, where we are gathered up in the Harvest - that the anti-Christ expires immediately.

Your thoughts are so often so convoluted, such as the incredible single sentence above -- why should anyone even bother with them?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Paul no more has Jesus kill the anti-Christ immediately with the Rapture, than does Jesus reveal to John that the anti-Christ is killed immediately with the Harvest.

Better?

Eschatology is not milk upon which to be weaned; it is real meat, and has to thought upon like one has to chew.

It is too bad that we have this adversarial relationship. 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Eschatology is not milk upon which to be weaned; it is real meat, and has to thought upon like one has to chew.

According to scripture:

• For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.  But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.  Hebrews 5:13-14

Milk and meat are not references to levels of intellectual capability but rather spiritual maturity.  I used to place a premium on intelligence until I realized how limited it was in helping produce godliness.  A person can understand all mysteries and prophecies but that in itself is nothing.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Eschatology is not for beginners.  It is not simple.

It does take intellect to be able to "know and understand" as Gabriel put it to Daniel.

I was drawing an analogy to Scripture.  

Thanks.

[TehMill]

I'm with Jesus, He was Post trib

 

"after the tribulation of those days .......they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds"

There are not multiple comings in the clouds this is parallel with 2. Thess.2

It comes not at the beginning of Antichist's career but the end for He will slay Antichrist with the breath of His mouth.

 

....it was Antichrist who caused the tribulation/persecution

[seeking the lost]

On 7/10/2015 at 6:25 AM, OneLight said:

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out where on the timeline of events the rapture would/should occur, only to come to the conclusion that it will happen "at the last trumpet", whenever that is. 1 Corinthians 15:52.  Point is to always be ready.

Yes and amen.  The Last trumpet and a resurrection both precede the rapture.  Find the resurrection of the dead in Christ and you will know the catching away follows.  The time of that resurrection is clearly identified and cannot be moved to suit ones own thinking.

[Last Daze]

59 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Yes and amen.  The Last trumpet and a resurrection both precede the rapture.  Find the resurrection of the dead in Christ and you will know the catching away follows.  The time of that resurrection is clearly identified and cannot be moved to suit ones own thinking.

Yes, and amen.

• This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”  John 6:39-40
• No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.   John 6:44

At the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, and after the resurrection which is on the last day.  That much is clearly stated, and pretty much ignored by some fanciful interpretations.  Seems to me that the place to start would be in understanding the trumpet of God and the last day.  But, some are more inclined to focus on what they want to see and not what the Bible says.  Even so, those who reject the ways of the world will discern what's happening and fare well.