Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[Ezra]

If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate?

 

Scripture speaks of three distinct groups -- The Jews, the Gentiles (also called "the Nations), and the Church of God. So the point of judging the nations (the Gentiles) is to separate believing Gentiles (sheep) from the unbelieving (goats).  We should also understand that these prophecies are broad brush-strokes, and the finer points have not been revealed.  So there is no need to get too involved with the details.

[firestormx]

 

If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate?

 

Scripture speaks of three distinct groups -- The Jews, the Gentiles (also called "the Nations), and the Church of God. So the point of judging the nations (the Gentiles) is to separate believing Gentiles (sheep) from the unbelieving (goats).  We should also understand that these prophecies are broad brush-strokes, and the finer points have not been revealed.  So there is no need to get too involved with the details.

 

Thanks for the clarification but it still makes no sense. The believing gentiles are gathered with the elect by the angels by my understanding. As for the church , we have already been raptured. I thank you for the clarification of your position, it just doesn't add up to me.

[Sister]

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

 

 

Firestormx

 

It's the same event.

Matthew 24 shows us the view from the ground.  They see the "sign" of Christ in heaven (in the sky)

....Then Christ is telling us that when they see his sign in heaven ...at this time.... is when he will gather all his elect from all over the world.  This is when the resurrection of the saints will take place.

 

 

Matthew 25 shows us that when he appears, he will be sitting on his throne (ready with authority to judge now) 

Out of all the nations gathered before him, he will separate the goats from the sheep.   Whether alive or dead, the goats and sheep are all before him.

The dead sheep will be raised, and those sheep alive will be picked up.  All the goats will be left behind.  Now he will destroy Babylon in one day, and the saints will be in the air with him to watch, for this is when he is going to collect them.

 

Both are the same event.  It's all about the gathering of the saints when he comes (the resurrection)

[Paragon78]

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

 

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

 

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

Firestormx

 

 

1. No they refer to the same even, the Return of Christ, no where in the bible does it teach multiple returns.

Mat_24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 

Col_1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have (have; past tense) heard, and which was(past tense) preached to every creature(every;all) which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 

Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 
Heb 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 
Col 1:13  Who hath(has;past tense) delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated(defi: Convert) us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 

Rapture as explained by dictionary and believed by most Theologians. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. To be raised up.

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 
Eph 2:6  And hath (has;past tense) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

 

...I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

The basic answer to your question is that the 2nd Coming is a long continuous event. Here is a summary I wrote (with some additions here) for another post that covers the topic in general:

The Lord's Presence during the Exodus began with his passing through Egypt on the night of the Passover; then was manifested in the pillar of cloud and fire; then was more fully manifested at Sinai when he came down, and called up the elect of Israel into his close Presence; and lastly was manifested when he went out to war in the great battle of the nations in Joshua 10.

Right after the Passover Presence began, Moses and the Israelites brought up from the graves the bones of Joseph and his brothers, and the Israelites fled into the wilderness.

The End Times will fulfill the same pattern, just as everything of the Tabernacle was a pattern of heavenly things. At the very beginning of the Presence, the Manchild of Rev. 12:5 will ascend, and the Woman will flee into the wilderness. Then some days later Jesus will come down in the clouds of heaven to take up the elect of his Church, but will not place his feet on earth at that time. The allegory/type was YHWH calling up the elect to the clouds of Mount Sinai, which is fulfilled when Jesus calls up the elect in the clouds to Mount Zion:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire... 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

The End Times will be completed years later when Jesus fights the great battle of the Day of the Lord at Jerusalem and Armageddon: in Joshua's time, the sun stood still, great stones fell from heaven, etc.; and at Armageddon, stones will again fall from heaven (Rev. 16:21) and

Zech 14:7 ...it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

To sum up, the Second Coming is a continuous Presence of the Lord, but his Presence is manifested differently during different events throughout the whole period of the End Times, which will last many years. This is precisely what occurred during the 40+ years of the Exodus, so one cannot deny that it is able to occur at the Second coming.

Hope this adequately addresses all your issues. Some of you will begin to see this, others will not. If I missed something, let me know and I'll address it.

Great question, by the way.

[thereselittleflower]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I guess I just don't understand the position of both verses being about the 2nd coming. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate? Nobody else will live again until Rev. 20. Jesus sits down on his throne, the nations gather before him so he can separate sheep from goats. Who are the Sheep? We are always with the Lord since the rapture. The Jews and the tribulation saints were gathered by the angels in Matt. 24:30-31. So who is left to separate? It just makes no sense to me.

 

 The only thing that makes sense to me is this. After the AoD the 6th seal and/or 4th trumpet event takes place sometime at the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years, after the 6th seal event as spoken of in Matt. 24  we come to verses 30-31 which is the rapture. Then the parables Jesus tells next makes a lot more sense as well. For, Matthew 24-25 is the end times from the churches point of view. Then when we come to Matt. 25:31-32, we have the 2nd coming where Jesus is separating the Jews and the people who believed there report and come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation from everyone else and setting up his Kingdom on earth.

 

I just don't understand how both can be talking about the 2nd coming. Everyone has been separated already by the rapture and Jesus gathering everyone to himself. I just don't understand, but I thank everyone for sharing there point of view.

Dispensationalism makes passages like this hard  -  but if you put that aside, it becomes easy to understand.    When Jesus returns, then we which are alive will be caught up with Him in the air.   It is the 2nd coming.  There is no "secret" or "hidden" 3rd coming for a rapture.

[missmuffet]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

[Last Daze]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

Concerning the resurrection unto immortality:

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.  1 Corinthians 15:23

[thereselittleflower]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

I see them as two parts of the same event.