Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[Marilyn C]

Hi firestormx,

I believe your difficulty comes from thinking that the Body of Christ is mentioned here. Now remember that revelation (the Body of Christ) was only given to the Apostle Paul later by the ascended Lord. Jesus did not reveal concerning His Body while on earth. Thus the  elect, are the people of Israel that have gone into hiding through out the world.

It is important to realise to whom Jesus was speaking & about their future, not ours.

Marilyn.

 

[missmuffet]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

I see them as two parts of the same event.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Edited September 29, 2015 by bopeep1909

[thereselittleflower]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

I see them as two parts of the same event.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

You know bopeep, this will just have to be one of those things we just agree to disagree on.  

[missmuffet]

Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

They are one and the same event.

 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

I see them as two parts of the same event.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

You know bopeep, this will just have to be one of those things we just agree to disagree on.  

I did not think you would see these scriptures as I do.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

[missmuffet]

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Edited September 30, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Omegaman 3.0]

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Don't get me wrong, I like Got Questions, it is a good site. Of course, a person could alledge, that people like it becuase their ministry lines up with what they beleive, lol. Where I disagree with you though, is your claim, (an the claim of many) that pre-trib is a literal understanding, when in fact it is no more literal than post trib.

The difference is that post-trib (in my opinion at least) is a literla understanding, while pre-trib, is literal understanding plkus added interpretation that pre-tribbers add to the scriptures. For example, that list of 13 things I posted before, that pre-tribbers tend to beleive, that are not found in scripture, or at least, no one was able to post a verse that demonstrated that those beliefs were warranted.

However, instead of quoting Got Questions, I quote myself, on things that post-tribber believe, and the verses that say the same things, without adding things that the bible never says. The odd things it, they are as literal as anything else I think, and oddly have no contradiction, and they even harmonize. For some reason though, that is not a good enough approach for many.

Notice in my quote of what you said, I bolded where you spoke of interpretation. Do you realize that that concept is a bit at odds with what you claim about yourself? Interpretation, is where one arrives at an understanding of something not explicitly said. It is impossible to interpret literally. You can understand something literally (we sometimes call that reading and understanding what we read) or you can interpret, but not both. The only kind of interpreting that I know of that is literal, is when interpreting from one language to another.

For the most part (in my opinion), post-tribbers do not see a need to interpret scripture, they just read it and take it at it's own word. When you add things (like the 13 in my list) to scripture, THAT is interpretation, and in that case, it goes beyond literal. 

I'll leave you do do some more interpreting.

[Last Daze]

They are one and the same event.

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

I see them as two parts of the same event.

They are, with little if any time between them and certainly within the same day.

[Last Daze]

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

According to 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 every single person will put on immortality at one of two possible times; either at Christ's coming or after the end of the millennium. 

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:23-24

The word "comes" is not in the original text and should have been left out or the word "at" should have been used instead.  It's obvious that two distinctly different times are being referenced.  Given how clearly stated that is in the context of immortality, no understanding should run contrary to it.

The passage above from Matthew continues to say:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.  Matthew 25:46

The sheep and the goat go into their respective eternity so immortality is reasonably assumed.  If that's true then that passage has to be referring to the immortality that is put on after the 1000 year reign just before handing the kingdom to the Father.

[missmuffet]

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Don't get me wrong, I like Got Questions, it is a good site. Of course, a person could alledge, that people like it becuase their ministry lines up with what they beleive, lol. Where I disagree with you though, is your claim, (an the claim of many) that pre-trib is a literal understanding, when in fact it is no more literal than post trib.

The difference is that post-trib (in my opinion at least) is a literla understanding, while pre-trib, is literal understanding plkus added interpretation that pre-tribbers add to the scriptures. For example, that list of 13 things I posted before, that pre-tribbers tend to beleive, that are not found in scripture, or at least, no one was able to post a verse that demonstrated that those beliefs were warranted.

However, instead of quoting Got Questions, I quote myself, on things that post-tribber believe, and the verses that say the same things, without adding things that the bible never says. The odd things it, they are as literal as anything else I think, and oddly have no contradiction, and they even harmonize. For some reason though, that is not a good enough approach for many.

Notice in my quote of what you said, I bolded where you spoke of interpretation. Do you realize that that concept is a bit at odds with what you claim about yourself? Interpretation, is where one arrives at an understanding of something not explicitly said. It is impossible to interpret literally. You can understand something literally (we sometimes call that reading and understanding what we read) or you can interpret, but not both. The only kind of interpreting that I know of that is literal, is when interpreting from one language to another.

For the most part (in my opinion), post-tribbers do not see a need to interpret scripture, they just read it and take it at it's own word. When you add things (like the 13 in my list) to scripture, THAT is interpretation, and in that case, it goes beyond literal. 

I'll leave you do do some more interpreting.

My issue with post tribbers is that they can not explain why the word "Church" is not mentioned in all tribulation Bible passages.Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally.