Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Dave Watchman said:

Shabbat Shalom, Retrobyter.

Thank you for your note. It sounds like you think "the time for the final restoration of all things" is equivalent to: "the time of the reconstitution" (of our bodies), at the time when we "recover our breath!"

I agree that the first resurrection occurs when our Lord Yeshua ` the Messiah returns PRIOR to the Millennium. But it doesn't seem like "every eye" will be open to see Him (even those who pierced Him) until after the thousand years are finished when the "rest of the dead" come to life and can see Him coming with the clouds again.

These throne room scenes:

Revelation 14

 

"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

 

Revelation 7

 

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

 

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.

 

Revelation 19

 

"After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

 

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
  for his judgments are true and just;
for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.

 

Are they BEFORE or After New Jerusalem comes down to Earth?

 

Or do you agree that the throne in Heaven is in New Jerusalem and that this Beloved City comes down to Earth AFTER the thousand years are finished?

Shabbat shalom, Bro. Dave.

I will answer your questions directly first, and then as needed I will go back and elaborate.

That which seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in the sky is BEFORE the New Jerusalem comes down to the Land.

I believe that the throne in the sky ("heaven") is that same throne in the New Jerusalem, mentioned in Revelation 21:5 and described in 22:1-3, and, yes, the New Jerusalem (Yerushalayim haChadashah) will descend to the New Earth AFTER the thousand years are finished. It is only THEN that the New Jerusalem, containing the throne, is in the sky ("heaven").

Now, let's go back and fill in the blanks:

Har Tsiown (Mount Zion) has been and always shall be in Jerusalem. There is not a "spiritual equivalent" in some place called "Heaven." Therefore, the verses you quoted from Revelation 14 occur here on this earth. It is NOT a "heavenly" throne room scene.

Being "redeemed from the earth" requires one to understand what "earth" means. Being translated from the Hebrew word "erets" [spelled alef-(segol)-reish-(segol)-tsaddai] and the Greek word "gee" (that is, spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay") both mean the GROUND under your feet or the LAND upon which you stand. It does NOT mean the PLANET! To be "redeemed from the earth," then, means "to be bought back from the ground!" I.e., it means "to be RESURRECTED," not "raptured!"

Revelation 7, which occurs BEFORE Revelation 14, has some contextual clues that suggest that it also occurs after the Resurrection:

1. They are said to be "standing" before the throne. Hard to do without legs and feet.
2. They are said to be "clothed in white robes." Again, this is hard to do without a body to support the robe!
3. They had palm branches in their hands. Hands! And, where did the "palm branches" come from?
4. They are crying out with a loud voice. This implies first of all that they HAVE "vocal chords," or rather, vocal folds. Secondly, it implies that they have air to breathe by which to speak. Remember: "In space, no one can hear you scream!"
5. That they "fell on their faces" suggests that they HAD faces upon which to fall!
6. The word that was translated "worship," the Greek word "proskuneoo," means "I bow the knee to," again, implying that they had knees!

These are NOT disembodied spirits! They are living, breathing, air-breathers! SOULS!

[Dave Watchman]

I know that this can be a daunting concept to some but my read so far is that Heaven, the dwelling place of God, is really a giant physical structure that Revelation calls New Jerusalem. This is where God's throne is, where the angels live, where Lucifer previously lived before he got kicked out and is what Jesus referred to as His Father's house with many rooms. New Jerusalem is also called the Beloved City and will one day rest on Earth and so the throne room scenes can be confusing depending on whether they occur before or after the thousand years are finished.

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

1. They are said to be "standing" before the throne. Hard to do without legs and feet.
2. They are said to be "clothed in white robes." Again, this is hard to do without a body to support the robe!
3. They had palm branches in their hands. Hands! And, where did the "palm branches" come from?
4. They are crying out with a loud voice. This implies first of all that they HAVE "vocal chords," or rather, vocal folds. Secondly, it implies that they have air to breathe by which to speak. Remember: "In space, no one can hear you scream!"
5. That they "fell on their faces" suggests that they HAD faces upon which to fall!
6. The word that was translated "worship," the Greek word "proskuneoo," means "I bow the knee to," again, implying that they had knees!

These are NOT disembodied spirits! They are living, breathing, air-breathers! SOULS!

When Jesus said:

"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom",

It leads me to believe that we won't be just wispy spirits floating around in the clouds after the resurrection. Like Jesus ate and drank with His disciples in His resurrected body, I believe we will also eat and drink in ours when we meet in His Father's kingdom. This might be why we are told about this huge building made up of the physical elements and why Jesus encouraged His disciples to touch His scars. Maybe they wanted us to know that we wouldn't just be disembodied spirits floating around. Remember how when Jesus cast those demons out how they begged to go into a herd of pigs? This might not be the best example but I'm just trying to suggest the idea that we might not be relegated to, as you say, the disembodied spirit world.

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Har Tsiown (Mount Zion) has been and always shall be in Jerusalem. There is not a "spiritual equivalent" in some place called "Heaven." Therefore, the verses you quoted from Revelation 14 occur here on this earth. It is NOT a "heavenly" throne room scene.

Being "redeemed from the earth" requires one to understand what "earth" means. Being translated from the Hebrew word "erets" [spelled alef-(segol)-reish-(segol)-tsaddai] and the Greek word "gee" (that is, spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay") both mean the GROUND under your feet or the LAND upon which you stand. It does NOT mean the PLANET! To be "redeemed from the earth," then, means "to be bought back from the ground!" I.e., it means "to be RESURRECTED," not "raptured!"

His abode has been established in Salem,
his dwelling place in Zion.

Say that the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth were in New Jerusalem standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. This also would be before the thousand years so the Beloved City would still be in Heaven or far up in the sky somewhere. Saying that they wee redeemed from the "earth" or the "land" or the "ground" or the "soil" upon which we now stand would make little difference.

These two throne scenes appear the same and don't seem to me to be the second coming at all. I can't see how they could transpire until after the thousand years are finished when every eye will see Him (even those who pierced Him).

The Final Judgment

Matthew 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Judgment Before the Great White Throne

Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I will see you in the air Retrobyter.

(The Good Lord willing)

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I know that this can be a daunting concept to some but my read so far is that Heaven, the dwelling place of God, is really a giant physical structure that Revelation calls New Jerusalem.

Not daunting, but certainly bogus!

4 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

It leads me to believe that we won't be just wispy spirits floating around in the clouds after the resurrection.

Angels are far from being "just wispy spirits." Nothing wispy about them, some of them have more power than whole armies. But they are still spirits.

Psalm 104:4 [God] makes His angels spirits,
His ministers a flame of fire.

Angels in heaven have real bodies, but they are not physical. They only take on flesh as a garment when they are sent to earth for mission.

4 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

...we are told about this huge building made up of the physical elements...

Jesus said nothing about the heavenly 'mansions' being made of physical elements.

Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

This kind of glorious body, when it resides in heaven/the spiritual realms, is not physical. Physical bodies cannot suddenly appear in a room with the door shut, as Jesus did (John 20:19), because physical bodies cannot pass through solid doors or walls. When we are raptured, our bodies will be "transformed" into a form suitable for the spiritual world: it will not be a physical body, but it will be a very real body nonetheless.

 

 

 

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

We don't yet know what kind of bodies we will have, but we know we shall have a body like the Lord.

[Dave Watchman]

35 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Angels in heaven have real bodies, but they are not physical. They only take on flesh as a garment when they are sent to earth for mission.

Hi William

I'm happy to have met with one who was there. For now I'll have to settle with this account from John.

And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father;

Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”

And when he had said this, he breathed on them

Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me?

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

39 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus said nothing about the heavenly 'mansions' being made of physical elements.

John did. I guess he'll have to remain my go to guy for this.

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. And the building of the wall of it was of jasper:

• and the city was pure gold,
• like unto clear glass.
• And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
• The first foundation was jasper;
• the second, sapphire;
• the third, a chalcedony;
• the fourth, an emerald;
• The fifth, sardonyx;
• the sixth, sardius;
• the seventh, chrysolite;
• the eighth, beryl;
• the ninth, a topaz;
• the tenth, a chrysoprasus;
• the eleventh, a jacinth;
• the twelfth, an amethyst.
• And the twelve gates were twelve pearls;
• every several gate was of one pearl:

and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Angels in heaven have real bodies, but they are not physical. They only take on flesh as a garment when they are sent to earth for mission.

Hi William

I'm happy to have met with one who was there. For now I'll have to settle with this account from John.

And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. [ETC.]

But this earthly appearance of Jesus has nothing to do with his heavenly body. Bait and switch. When Jesus was appearing again on earth after his resurrection, did John report him having " head and hair white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; feet like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength" ?

You think the disciples might have noticed these things.

13 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus said nothing about the heavenly 'mansions' being made of physical elements.

John did. I guess he'll have to remain my go to guy for this.

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city... [ETC.]

Again, bait and switch. This is describing a future event after the Millennium, when there are an entirely new and different heaven and earth than exists now.

18 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I know that this can be a daunting concept to some but my read so far is that Heaven, the dwelling place of God, is really a giant physical structure that Revelation calls New Jerusalem. This is where God's throne is...

Are you LDS? Because this is their doctrine. Do you believe that the Father has a body of flesh and bones like the Son? Do you believe God's heavenly throne is on some planet out in the cosmos? These things are what the LDS Church believes, and what your teaching above implies.