Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[Guest shiloh357]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

Actually the Bible makes several connections between holy living and the return of Jesus.  The return of Jesus is presented by Paul, Peter and John in connection with holiness.   It's not the case that people are only living right because they don't want to be "spanked."   That is simply not the case at all, and I don't think Paul or John would agree with you about that.  I think it is just incorrect to argue that pre-tribbers have ulterior motives for living right.  Following the logic you offer, one could easily make that same accusation in connection with the Second Coming which is presented in connection with holiness.

Since there will be an instant judgment after the rapture the Bema Seat of those in heaven I have always wondered if those who are Post trib are afraid of that judgment.

Post trib really makes no sense to me.  But that's just me.   We all know we are going to be judged for our works.   We have already been judged righteous by Jesus so our salvation is not in jeopardy.  The judgment for us as believers at the Bema Seat is not a judgment of us, but of our works.   So we are not living right out of fear of what might happen to us.   I don't know what anyone could possibly be afraid of.

We want to be found working for Jesus when he returns.  We want to found living for Him, not from a sense of terror or because we are afraid, but because we want His favor.   

[missmuffet]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

Actually the Bible makes several connections between holy living and the return of Jesus.  The return of Jesus is presented by Paul, Peter and John in connection with holiness.   It's not the case that people are only living right because they don't want to be "spanked."   That is simply not the case at all, and I don't think Paul or John would agree with you about that.  I think it is just incorrect to argue that pre-tribbers have ulterior motives for living right.  Following the logic you offer, one could easily make that same accusation in connection with the Second Coming which is presented in connection with holiness.

Since there will be an instant judgment after the rapture the Bema Seat of those in heaven I have always wondered if those who are Post trib are afraid of that judgment.

Post trib really makes no sense to me.  But that's just me.   We all know we are going to be judged for our works.   We have already been judged righteous by Jesus so our salvation is not in jeopardy.  The judgment for us as believers at the Bema Seat is not a judgment of us, but of our works.   So we are not living right out of fear of what might happen to us.   I don't know what anyone could possibly be afraid of.

We want to be found working for Jesus when he returns.  We want to found living for Him, not from a sense of terror or because we are afraid, but because we want His favor.   

That is true we already have a place in heaven.It is just rewards that are given to us or taken away.Some may not have any.I studied all of the views after I first became a Christian.I prayed and I did research and I read the scriptures over and over.After a while peace came to me with Pretrib because of God's grace and mercy.

[gdemoss]

God sent his Son in the fullness of time.  An event brought about by it becoming the only way possible for man to be saved upon the earth and avoid extinction I perceive as God is a savior not a destroyer.  There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 billion people alive today.  That means that not only 8 were saved on the ark but the billions that have come forth since like you and I.

So when trying to understand the second coming of Christ I believe we need to consider that there must be something which would necessitate his return as was things in that past that brought God forth before.  

Nothing in this world is unreasonable but we do not possess all the knowledge we would need to accurately reason within ourselves of the beginning to the end of Gods works.  Therefore we are left open to debate on the end times subject.  A debate that cannot be determined.  Let us be careful to be kind for by debate, envy and deceit we destroy ourselves.  Peace.

I had a friend who once told me that he left the planning committee and joined the welcoming committee instead.  He found it more productive to prepare to shout for joy upon the arrival of Christ than to try to figure out when he would come.  Myself, I am practicing singing! For when he comes you will hear me loud and clear "JOY TO THE CHURCH!  THE LORD HAS COME. LET THE BRIDE RECEIVE HER GROOM!" You may not have heard that version yet LOL  

[Montana Marv]

In response to # 7 - In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return

This is not what Scripture says or implies. 

Scripture says only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride.  Matt 24:36-40.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.  Two women will be grinding with the hand mill, one will be taken and the other left.  Matt 25: . The 10 virgins  v 13, therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour. (Coming of the Bridegroom)

This # 7 is also a play on words. In Daniels time (Dan 12:11) it is revealed that the end is 1,335 days after the A/D.  Zech 12:10 - They will look on me, the one they have pierced.  This is after the Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Many will follow false teachers and we can see that today.We have immorality today in society which is a sign of mankind's rebellion against God.

2 Timothy 3:1-4 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

We are living in a hedonistic and materialistic society.People are lovers of themselves.

[Omegaman 3.0]

In response to # 7 - In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return

This is not what Scripture says or implies. 

Scripture says only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride.  Matt 24:36-40.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.  Two women will be grinding with the hand mill, one will be taken and the other left.  Matt 25: . The 10 virgins  v 13, therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour. (Coming of the Bridegroom)

This # 7 is also a play on words. In Daniels time (Dan 12:11) it is revealed that the end is 1,335 days after the A/D.  Zech 12:10 - They will look on me, the one they have pierced.  This is after the Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well Marv, my reference for that is Matt 24:36, which states:

36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,^f but only the Father. 

So, 1st question. Which day or hour? Immediately after and immediately before the verse, the context tells us that the day or hour is when the son of man comes. Pre-tribbers are often fond of saying no one knows, and then they apply that to the rapture, the imminent coming of the Lord. Sorry, but this is the coming of the Lord after the tribulation, that is what the context says, anyone who says otherwise, is dishonest about the text.

2nd question. Since pre-tribbers tell us (often) that Matt 24 is about the second coming, not the rapture, why do they apply this verse at all? This also seem disingenuous, or at the very lesst, sloppy and inconsistent exegesis.

3rd question. Since this is Jesus speaking, 2000 years ago, in the present tense, why do pretribbers treat it as though Jesus said: "No one will ever know"? He did not fact is, that Jesus only said that no one presently KNOWS, not in the future WILL KNOW, another dishonest treatment of scripture. I know no one (most likely) is trying to deceive intentionally, but those who have read this post, now realize that this was present tense 2000 years ago, and to use the verse this way from now on, is intentional deception.th

4th question. Since Jesus used the term day or hour, that should imply a relatively brief span of time as opposed to the less precision terms he used when speaking of the restoration if the Kingdom to Israel. This is a small, not extremely solid point, but never the less, the fact remains that here Jesus did not say, "no one knows the year, or century".

For all of these reasons, what I said "In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return"

is exactly accurate and not a play on words at all, as you accuse me of, and as honest handlers of the word have now seen.

Look at the elements of what I said in the quote. In Jesus time - check - present tense 2000 years ago. Exact time? - check, he said day or hour, and did not rule out broader periods. Visible return? check again, the context of Matt 24 bears that out.

All three things I said in the quote, are in the verse. The rapture at any moment idea, ifs foreign to the verse that pre-tribbers use to prove their point.

You, on the other hand, have ripped the verse from it's context, and imported it to the bridegroom part of the discourse. I will leave it to the readers to determine who is being honest with the text, and who is playing loose with it.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Me too Rick.

Well, the only problem there is,is that truth is not determined by a democratic voting process. One million Christians can believe the Bible says that, but that does not make it so. The lack of producing scripture that says there is a pre-trip rapture, should at least be an admission on the part of the honest, that they believe that in spite of the scripture, not because of it.

[missmuffet]

In response to # 7 - In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return

This is not what Scripture says or implies. 

Scripture says only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride.  Matt 24:36-40.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.  Two women will be grinding with the hand mill, one will be taken and the other left.  Matt 25: . The 10 virgins  v 13, therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour. (Coming of the Bridegroom)

This # 7 is also a play on words. In Daniels time (Dan 12:11) it is revealed that the end is 1,335 days after the A/D.  Zech 12:10 - They will look on me, the one they have pierced.  This is after the Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well Marv, my reference for that is Matt 24:36, which states:

36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,^f but only the Father. 

So, 1st question. Which day or hour? Immediately after and immediately before the verse, the context tells us that the day or hour is when the son of man comes. Pre-tribbers are often fond of saying no one knows, and then they apply that to the rapture, the imminent coming of the Lord. Sorry, but this is the coming of the Lord after the tribulation, that is what the context says, anyone who says otherwise, is dishonest about the text.

2nd question. Since pre-tribbers tell us (often) that Matt 24 is about the second coming, not the rapture, why do they apply this verse at all? This also seem disingenuous, or at the very lesst, sloppy and inconsistent exegesis.

3rd question. Since this is Jesus speaking, 2000 years ago, in the present tense, why do pretribbers treat it as though Jesus said: "No one will ever know"? He did not fact is, that Jesus only said that no one presently KNOWS, not in the future WILL KNOW, another dishonest treatment of scripture. I know no one (most likely) is trying to deceive intentionally, but those who have read this post, now realize that this was present tense 2000 years ago, and to use the verse this way from now on, is intentional deception.th

4th question. Since Jesus used the term day or hour, that should imply a relatively brief span of time as opposed to the less precision terms he used when speaking of the restoration if the Kingdom to Israel. This is a small, not extremely solid point, but never the less, the fact remains that here Jesus did not say, "no one knows the year, or century".

For all of these reasons, what I said "In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return"

is exactly accurate and not a play on words at all, as you accuse me of, and as honest handlers of the word have now seen.

Look at the elements of what I said in the quote. In Jesus time - check - present tense 2000 years ago. Exact time? - check, he said day or hour, and did not rule out broader periods. Visible return? check again, the context of Matt 24 bears that out.

All three things I said in the quote, are in the verse. The rapture at any moment idea, ifs foreign to the verse that pre-tribbers use to prove their point.

You, on the other hand, have ripped the verse from it's context, and imported it to the bridegroom part of the discourse. I will leave it to the readers to determine who is being honest with the text, and who is playing loose with it.

Matthew 24:36 is the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.Although signs of the coming tribulation may occur before the rapture there is nothing that must occur before the rapture.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

 

Makes evangelism rather a waist of time, don't you think.

If the people of God cannot change,what chance does the unbeleiver have? Thankfully, you are not in control, God is!

Another straw-man. Evangelism is not eschatology.  And God's sovereignty was not even brought into the picture. Of course God is always in control, but if a mule is stubborn, he lets the mule stay stubborn although He does expose his stubbornness (Acts 7:51).

We are currently focused on eschatology, and from what I have seen and observed, those who commit themselves to a certain camp have no desire to move away from there.  Check out Preterist Hank Hanegraaff.  Maybe now he wants to be a partial Preterist since he knows that Preterism is mere fantasy.

Do you always try to make an effort to miss or ignore the point, or do you do that by accident? We are focused on Eschatology, it was you, not I that said people do not change their minds. So I responded to your statement, your change of subject, and it was refuted. If you do not like being refuted, then I suggest you stop making sweeping and untrue statements. If as you say, people do not change their minds, then evangelism is indeed pointless. I assume that you actually believe that your own statement is false, otherwise, why would you even bother to debate, since your influence has so little effect? Or, are you like me, hoping to save others from brainwashing? 

[missmuffet]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Me too Rick.

Well, the only problem there is,is that truth is not determined by a democratic voting process. One million Christians can believe the Bible says that, but that does not make it so. The lack of producing scripture that says there is a pre-trip rapture, should at least be an admission on the part of the honest, that they believe that in spite of the scripture, not because of it.

Yes,and that can also apply to Post trib.One million Christians can believe the Bible points to a Post trib rapture but that does not make it so.I see that there will be a pretrib rapture in Scripture you see that there will be a Post trib rapture.Who is right?We can not go on and on beating each other over the head trying to claim that each other is right now can we?Time will tell.