Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[Omegaman 3.0]

Bopeep said: "Matthew 24:36 is the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.Although signs of the coming tribulation may occur before the rapture there is nothing that must occur before the rapture."

 

Okay, let's look at the Bible instead of Got Question, or Rapture Ready or a left behind movie for our understanding:

36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,^f but only the Father.

left The fact that is says "But about that time" points backward to something He just said, so if you are correct Bopeep, then we will find a pre-trib rapture at some point in that discourse, and probably just before He said that. It is unlikely that he said "about that time" referring to something he did not just say, so, what is "that time" that He is seaking to?

So, just to get it on the page, where everyone can see (and has ears to hear):

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it^e is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

I don't think I should even need to comment any further, the text is self explanatory, The visible coming after the trib is in mind here, am I wrong?

 

[missmuffet]

Bopeep said: "Matthew 24:36 is the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.Although signs of the coming tribulation may occur before the rapture there is nothing that must occur before the rapture."

 

Okay, let's look at the Bible instead of Got Question, or Rapture Ready or a left behind movie for our understanding:

36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,^f but only the Father.

left The fact that is says "But about that time" points backward to something He just said, so if you are correct Bopeep, then we will find a pre-trib rapture at some point in that discourse, and probably just before He said that. It is unlikely that he said "about that time" referring to something he did not just say, so, what is "that time" that He is seaking to?

So, just to get it on the page, where everyone can see (and has ears to hear):

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it^e is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

I don't think I should even need to comment any further, the text is self explanatory, The visible coming after the trib is in mind here, am I wrong?

 

I did not get my view from Got Questions.I got the view from my interpretation.You are just not interpreting Scripture the way I do.All those verses show me the second coming which is separate from the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.

"Okay, let's look at the Bible instead of Got Question, or Rapture Ready or a left behind movie for our understanding:" 

Come on Omega you are not that haughty.

Edited October 11, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Omegaman 3.0]

Bopeep said: "Yes,and that can also apply to Post trib.One million Christians can believe the Bible points to a Post trib rapture but that does not make it so.I see that there will be a pretrib rapture in Scripture you see that there will be a Post trib rapture.Who is right?We can not go on and on beating each other over the head trying to claim that each other is right now can we?Time will tell.

 

Well Bopeep, here is the thing, I am not one of the ones who came to this thread and said "I beleive such and such" as if my vote counted for anything. When I posted, I gave sriptural reasons for what I said, I did not say "I beleive post-trib" and then leave. That contributes nothing to understanding does it? If you believe the Bible says something, why are you keeping that knowledge from me?

If one million post-tribbers came and said "I beleive post-trib", I would count that as not as valuable as a single pre-tribber with a lame, but real attempt at reasoning from the scriptures. Time, by the way, will tell, of course, but I do not think the Bible wasted so many words or clues, sequences and warnings, just so we can be uniformed and throw up our hands with a gee, we can't tell, or "I don't care" (not you but others) attitude. Do you think the Bible  was  written to tease us and leave us in doubt? I believe it is intended to reveal things, to those who believe.

 

[missmuffet]

Bopeep said: "Yes,and that can also apply to Post trib.One million Christians can believe the Bible points to a Post trib rapture but that does not make it so.I see that there will be a pretrib rapture in Scripture you see that there will be a Post trib rapture.Who is right?We can not go on and on beating each other over the head trying to claim that each other is right now can we?Time will tell.

 

Well Bopeep, here is the thing, I am not one of the ones who came to this thread and said "I beleive such and such" as if my vote counted for anything. When I posted, I gave sriptural reasons for what I said, I did not say "I beleive post-trib" and then leave. That contributes nothing to understanding does it? If you believe the Bible says something, why are you keeping that knowledge from me?

If one million post-tribbers came and said "I beleive post-trib", I would count that as not as valuable as a single pre-tribber with a lame, but real attempt at reasoning from the scriptures. Time, by the way, will tell, of course, but I do not think the Bible wasted so many words or clues, sequences and warnings, just so we can be uniformed and throw up our hands with a gee, we can't tell, or "I don't care" (not you but others) attitude. Do you think the Bible  was  written to tease us and leave us in doubt? I believe it is intended to reveal things, to those who believe.

 

I think it is pre trib and you think it is post trib.I am free to post my Scripture to justify why I believe as I do and you can post your Scripture to justify why you believe as you do.It is a standoff.It is a never ending go no where game.

So please do not brow beat me into taking your post trib position.It will never happen.

Edited October 11, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Omegaman 3.0]

Seriously, it is your choice to believe whatever you like (though I prefer you believe the Bible), and offering scriptural reasons is hardly brow beating. You are indeed free to post scripture, and I encourage you to do so. I suppose that you have done that in the past, but all I really recall, is you copy and pasting the opinions of others. I believe you when you say it will never happen (changing your mind), that is an example of what I am speaking to when I mentioned to Ezra (I think it was) that some people have a "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" attitude.

Did you bother to notice though, what this topic is about? It is not "Reasons why post-trib is true". It is Things that the Bible actually says. Just like the other thread was things the Bible does not say. I do not apologize, that you believe the things that the bible does not say, and perhaps also do not believe the things it does say. Was anything in my list, in either list, incorrect?

No need to answer that, I don't want you brow beaten, but at least, you might consider if what I said in those lists, are true, and if they are, why you come to the conclusions you do? Gee, I am such a bully, now, where did I misplace my brow beating stick?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

Actually the Bible makes several connections between holy living and the return of Jesus.  The return of Jesus is presented by Paul, Peter and John in connection with holiness.   It's not the case that people are only living right because they don't want to be "spanked."   That is simply not the case at all, and I don't think Paul or John would agree with you about that.  I think it is just incorrect to argue that pre-tribbers have ulterior motives for living right.  Following the logic you offer, one could easily make that same accusation in connection with the Second Coming which is presented in connection with holiness.

Since there will be an instant judgment after the rapture the Bema Seat of those in heaven I have always wondered if those who are Post trib are afraid of that judgment.

Post trib really makes no sense to me.  But that's just me.   We all know we are going to be judged for our works.   We have already been judged righteous by Jesus so our salvation is not in jeopardy.  The judgment for us as believers at the Bema Seat is not a judgment of us, but of our works.   So we are not living right out of fear of what might happen to us.   I don't know what anyone could possibly be afraid of.

We want to be found working for Jesus when he returns.  We want to found living for Him, not from a sense of terror or because we are afraid, but because we want His favor.   

That is true we already have a place in heaven.It is just rewards that are given to us or taken away.Some may not have any.I studied all of the views after I first became a Christian.I prayed and I did research and I read the scriptures over and over.After a while peace came to me with Pretrib because of God's grace and mercy.

Yes, the Tribulation period concerns Israel and the Jews, not the Church.   The Church is not the focus of the anti-Christ's wrath;  Israel is.  Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.     If the Church were still in the tribulation, why send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to evangelize the world?   What's the Church doing?  Are they silent?   It makes no sense.   That's one reason I don't accept a Post Tribulation view.  

[Ezra]

The Tribulation is for the Jews and the unbelievers, and the Great Tribulation is God's response to the blasphemy of the Abomination of Desolation, and the worship of the Beast and Satan by the whole world.  All of this happens only when the Church is absent, and the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed. If all Christians would get a hold of these basic facts, then we would not be discussing a post-Tribulation Rapture. Furthermore since the book of Revelation details this period of history, there is not even a hint of a Rapture throughout Revelation.

[ghtan]

13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come.

Any scriptural backing for this one? I seem to remember that the 'thief in the night' sayings were all directed at believers.

[Last Daze]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I suggested to be ready, come what may.  That applies to all equally, regardless of eschatological beliefs.  Please don't assume that you know what I think.  It's somewhat revealing though that you took it that way.

People prepare for what they expect to encounter.  Living in a landlocked state, I've never prepared for a hurricane.  I wouldn't know how.  I don't expect to encounter one.  Tornadoes are a different story.  Think about it.

Hope for the best.  Prepare for the worst.  It's simply the most prudent approach.  Five were wise.  Five were foolish.

[Last Daze]

The Tribulation is for the Jews and the unbelievers, and the Great Tribulation is God's response to the blasphemy of the Abomination of Desolation, and the worship of the Beast and Satan by the whole world.  All of this happens only when the Church is absent, and the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed. If all Christians would get a hold of these basic facts, then we would not be discussing a post-Tribulation Rapture. Furthermore since the book of Revelation details this period of history, there is not even a hint of a Rapture throughout Revelation.

Those are not facts.  They are fabrications wrapped in wishful thinking.

The "rapture" in Revelation:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

He swung His sickle while sitting on the cloud.  This is the resurrection that Jesus spoke of in John.

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:17

Christ, sitting on a cloud raises those of His who have died.  Those who are alive are changed.  All are gathered to Himself.  This is at the seventh trumpet.  If you keep reading, the reaping of the wicked follows the reaping of the righteous in Rev 14.