SHOULD CHRISTIANS, FOLLOW THE TORAH ?

[Qnts2]

HELLO ALL, I don't know if this was already brought up for discussion, but I thought I would bring it to the table, and see what you all think or what your views is on, this ? should true believers in God follow the TORAH ?

Contrary to the New Testament, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, and perhaps some others believe that they are required to follow the Torah.  But the Torah has a very large portion devoted to the Tabernacle, the sacrifices, the offerings, and the feasts connected with the Old Covenant. So unless a person can actually obey each and every one of those commandments (including those pertaining to the Tabernacle) IT IS PURELY A SHAM. And if a person returns to the Old Covenant, he is basically rejecting Christ and the New Covenant. So take your pick and talk to the Orthodox Jews (who only follow certain parts of the Torah and think that God is pleased).

I am a Messianic Jew. While some Messianic Jews believe they are required to follow the 'Torah'/Mosaic law, most do not.

Messianic Judaism does encourage following certain traditions which are based on the Mosaic law for the sake of the unsaved Jewish community. The Jewish community, whether Orthodox, Conservative or Reform has a cultural practice based on the Mosaic law. As Jewish believers desire to see other Jews to come to the knowledge of the Messiah, in order to share the gospel in a way in which it is receivable to Jewish people, one basis in Messianic Judaism is that Jews who believe on Jesus need to identify and remain as a part of the greater Jewish community. Rabbi's have taught that if a Jewish person becomes a Christian, they are lost to the Jewish community, so Messianic Judaism wants to show that it is a very Jewish thing to believe in the Messiah, Jesus.

There is a small subset within the Messianic Jewish community that think that the Mosaic law is a requirement for all Jews, saved and unsaved but that is a smaller subset and the topic brings a bit contention within the Messianic Jewish community.

SDA's do not follow the Mosaic law but rather a subset of the law and most of the laws they claim to keep are misinterpreted and misapplied.

Other groups like One Law and a Two House subset also claim to follow the Mosaic law but also misinterpret and misapply the verses. Some verses are manipulated by some of the teachers of these groups, including bad translations of Hebrew to support their doctrines.

Now, some other statements. At this time, the Jewish people are still living in a scattered state, outside of Israel and without a Temple. You state that because there is no Temple, the law can not be kept at all, and attempting to keep the law is 'a sham'. Going to scripture, Daniel lived outside of Israel due to the Babylonian dispersion. Daniel lived in King Nebuchadnezzar's court.

Daniel 1:5And the king appointed for them a daily provision of the king’s delicacies and of the wine which he drank, and three years of training for them, so that at the end of that time they might serve before the king. ⁶ Now from among those of the sons of Judah were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. ⁷ To them the chief of the eunuchs gave names: he gave Daniel the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-Nego.

⁸ But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies, nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. ⁹ Now God had brought Daniel into the favor and goodwill of the chief of the eunuchs. ¹⁰ And the chief of the eunuchs said to Daniel, “I fear my lord the king, who has appointed your food and drink. For why should he see your faces looking worse than the young men who are your age? Then you would endanger my head before the king.”

Eating the food provided by the King would have violated the food laws in the Mosaic law. Since the Temple sacrifices were not taking place, was it a 'sham' to continue to avoid food which would would defile (not kosher)? The point is, being outside of the land of Israel and without a Temple, under the Mosaic covenant, does not make it a sham to practice a subset of the Mosaic law.

In the NT, that Romans allowed the Temple Priesthood and the Pharisees to set much of the law in Jerusalem. So, in Jerusalem, a Jewish person was obligated to keep the Mosaic law. The Jewish disciples of Jesus who lived in Jerusalem kept the Mosaic law as it was the law of the land. Keeping the Mosaic law in Jerusalem did not mean they were rejecting Jesus.

[Qnts2]

So,   of Isaac and Ishmael,  which one obeyed his earthly father , received the inheritance, and kept Yahweh's Word faithfully ((with the usually and occasional disobedience instead of continual dishonor and disobedience))  and honored Yahweh ? 

Abraham was promised a child by Sarah. Sarah's child was the child of promise. Sarah, fearing that she would not have a child got her servant to be a concubine and have a child by Abraham. So, it is not that Ishmael was disobedient. Ishmael was not the child of promise because he was Hagar's child and not Sarah's. Sarah's child was the child God promised Abraham.

[Willa]

Galatians 3: 10-14, 23-25 NKJV   For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse;  for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them".  But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."  13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

23-25 But before faith came we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith that would afterward be revealed. Therefor the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after faith has come, we no long need a tutor.

John 13:34-35  A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.  by this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Mt. 22:37-40  NKJV  Jesus said to him, "You shall love the LORD (YHWH) your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind".  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.".  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."  

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment:  that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

I understand that all of the 10 commandments were repeated in the New Testament but for the Sabbath laws.  Instead we are told in Romans 14 and Col. 2:16 not to judge one another as to which days we observe.   But as stated, when we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and we are not under the law.  Gal. 5:16-18

 

 

[Ezra]

Qnts2,

All I am saying is that in the light of the New Testament, Torah observance has been ruled out.  Even the dietary laws have been ruled out. Everything pertaining to the Temple, the Levitical priesthood, the festivals, etc. has been ruled out.  So for anyone to claim that they are Torah observant is also to claim that "For us the New Testament does not exist". Paul made it very clear that his righteousness as a very strict Pharisee was NULL AND VOID (Phil 3:1-14).  If Paul counted his Torah observance as "dung" how can any Jew today go back and ignore Paul? He even told Peter that (a) he was dead to the Law and (b) he would not frustrate the grace of God by the works of the Law (Gal 2:19-21).

[RustyAngeL]

Qnts2,

All I am saying is that in the light of the New Testament, Torah observance has been ruled out.  Even the dietary laws have been ruled out. Everything pertaining to the Temple, the Levitical priesthood, the festivals, etc. has been ruled out.  So for anyone to claim that they are Torah observant is also to claim that "For us the New Testament does not exist". Paul made it very clear that his righteousness as a very strict Pharisee was NULL AND VOID (Phil 3:1-14).  If Paul counted his Torah observance as "dung" how can any Jew today go back and ignore Paul? He even told Peter that (a) he was dead to the Law and (b) he would not frustrate the grace of God by the works of the Law (Gal 2:19-21).

Col 2:14-6 might give you an answer.  It sure  did for me.

[peacemakerIND]

HELLO ALL, I don't know if this was already brought up for discussion, but I thought I would bring it to the table, and see what you all think or what your views is on, this ? should true believers in God follow the TORAH ?

Contrary to the New Testament, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, and perhaps some others believe that they are required to follow the Torah.  But the Torah has a very large portion devoted to the Tabernacle, the sacrifices, the offerings, and the feasts connected with the Old Covenant. So unless a person can actually obey each and every one of those commandments (including those pertaining to the Tabernacle) IT IS PURELY A SHAM. And if a person returns to the Old Covenant, he is basically rejecting Christ and the New Covenant. So take your pick and talk to the Orthodox Jews (who only follow certain parts of the Torah and think that God is pleased).

I agree with brother Ezra... Torah is original writings.. in these days many translations are forget the message from Torah.. many human feelings added to present translations.. This is leading Christian world to go out from truth.. very sad to see this

[RustyAngeL]

I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing what the Torah says.  Yes it is the law and yes we are under grace.  I believe that grace becomes even more precious to us in our lives once we really understand the law, but I don't believe we need to follow it.

[angels4u]

I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing what the Torah says.  Yes it is the law and yes we are under grace.  I believe that grace becomes even more precious to us in our lives once we really understand the law, but I don't believe we need to follow it.

Agree,we don't have to follow it but it has lots of good advice..agree?

[Guest shiloh357]

Qnts2,

All I am saying is that in the light of the New Testament, Torah observance has been ruled out.  Even the dietary laws have been ruled out. Everything pertaining to the Temple, the Levitical priesthood, the festivals, etc. has been ruled out.  So for anyone to claim that they are Torah observant is also to claim that "For us the New Testament does not exist". Paul made it very clear that his righteousness as a very strict Pharisee was NULL AND VOID (Phil 3:1-14).  If Paul counted his Torah observance as "dung" how can any Jew today go back and ignore Paul? He even told Peter that (a) he was dead to the Law and (b) he would not frustrate the grace of God by the works of the Law (Gal 2:19-21).

That's not exactly true.  Messianic Jewish believers are free to observe the festivals and the Sabbath and the dietary laws if they so choose.   While the temple was still standing, even Paul performed sacrifices.   The observance the Sabbath and dietary laws doesn't equate with rejecting the New Testament at all.  None of those things are at odds with faith in Jesus.   Jesus said that he didn't come to abrogate the law but to fill it up, to fulfill it.   "Fulfill" doesn't mean, "terminate"  or "do away with." 

Paul was comparing all of his accomplishments, all of those things he could boast in as dung.   He wasn't claiming that obeying the Torah was dung.   The Torah isn't some extra-biblical text.  It is the first five books of Moses and there is no way that Paul would called any part of the Bible or obedience to any part of the Bible as "dung." 

Paul was confronting Peter because Peter was being two-faced.   Peter was acting one way around the Judaizers and a different way around the Gentile believers and Paul confronted Peter for acting that way.  Peter feared the condemnation of the Judaizers who were teaching justification through the law, which is a perversion of Torah observance.   Paul and Peter's confrontation was over hypocrisy, not Torah observance.

[Littlelambseativy]

Jesus says He has come to set the prisoner free...free from the laws. If one broke one law he broke them all. Jesus came to replace the law with God's grace and to set man free of the condemnation of obedience to the law fir salvation. Now salvation is free if on only believes in Jesus' redemption on the cross.