Sin is not imputed when there is no law

[simplejeff]

9 hours ago, Jewels7 said:

Don't we have to believe in sin first before we can accept we're not worthy of living because of it? 

In ROMANS it is written that gentiles who obey TORAH from their conscience are justified, being DOers of the WORD even though they don't "have TORAH", 

while those who "have TORAH" but disregard it , being "HEARERS ONLY" and not "DOERS" ,  are not justified.

YHWH is absolutely just and righteous judge -  those "outside ecclesia" are judged by HIM, not by ecclesia, and YHWH always

and perfectly judges righteously.

[Jewels7]

I don't think it fruitful for any Christian to imagine themselves like unto scum of the earth in God's sight. 

My righteousness is due to God's grace. I don't see it as like unto filthy rags when it is a gift of my father. I think many Christians fail when they think men's narratives in scripture are actually God's words. That the whole book cover to cover is Gods writing and not at all a reflection of the politic of the time, the cultural influences, etc.... 

I've attended services where Christians in chorus recite the self=deprecating mantra: Oh, Lord, though we know we're not worthy.....

What nonsense is that? God imagined we were worthy of dying for in the flesh as the son of man. All set into motion because God in his graceful way decided to show mercy to the human community that he damned in the beginning for the first mistake the first of us made. And we chant to Heaven we're not worthy of all that Jesus suffered to bring God's new covenant to earth? 
 

To each their own. 
It is a relationship after all.  

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, Jewels7 said:

That the whole book cover to cover is Gods writing and not at all a reflection of the politic of the time, the cultural influences, etc.... 

YHWH says HIS WORD (SCRIPTURE) is all YHWH BREATHED (INSPIRED) and given for our benefit TODAY. 

It is not changed by society , politic,  medicio,  scholars,  priests, pastors , students, professors, or anyone else. (nor by culture).

Some places people go do teach, preach and practice things very contrary to HIS WORD.  

The GOOD SHEPHERD Y'SHUA (JESUS) says MY sheep KNOW MY VOICe and follow ME,  and they will not follow another .....

[Jewels7]

3 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

YHWH says HIS WORD (SCRIPTURE) is all YHWH BREATHED (INSPIRED) and given for our benefit TODAY. 

It is not changed by society , politic,  medicio,  scholars,  priests, pastors , students, professors, or anyone else. (nor by culture).

Some places people go do teach, preach and practice things very contrary to HIS WORD.  

The GOOD SHEPHERD Y'SHUA (JESUS) says MY sheep KNOW MY VOICe and follow ME,  and they will not follow another .....

 

 

 Exodus 21:1“Here are other laws you must obey: ......

Exodus 21:24.   “If her eye is injured, injure his; if her tooth is knocked out, knock out his; and so on—hand for hand, foot for foot, ²⁵ burn for burn, wound for wound, lash for lash.

Leviticus 24:19-21  The penalty for injuring anyone is to be injured in exactly the same way: ²⁰ fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Whatever anyone does to another shall be done to him.²¹ “To repeat, whoever kills an animal must replace it, and whoever kills a man must die.

 

"For these are not my own ideas, but I have told you what the Father said to tell you. ⁵⁰ And I know his instructions lead to eternal life; so whatever he tells me to say, I say!” John 12:49-50

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. " Matthew 5:38-39

 

[simplejeff]

TORAH is good when it is used properly, as YHWH SPOKE TORAH.

When TORAH is mis-represented, mis-used, ignored, abandoned, or dis-honored, 

there is sin.

[Openly Curious]

6 hours ago, Jewels7 said:

I don't think it fruitful for any Christian to imagine themselves like unto scum of the earth in God's sight. 

My righteousness is due to God's grace. I don't see it as like unto filthy rags when it is a gift of my father. I think many Christians fail when they think men's narratives in scripture are actually God's words.  That the whole book cover to cover is Gods writing and not at all a reflection of the politic of the time, the cultural influences, etc.... 

I've attended services where Christians in chorus recite the self=deprecating mantra: Oh, Lord, though we know we're not worthy.....

What nonsense is that? God imagined we were worthy of dying for in the flesh as the son of man. All set into motion because God in his graceful way decided to show mercy to the human community that he damned in the beginning for the first mistake the first of us made. And we chant to Heaven we're not worthy of all that Jesus suffered to bring God's new covenant to earth? 
 

To each their own. 
It is a relationship after all.  

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are "all" as an unclean thing and "all" our righteousness are as "filthy rags;" and we "all" do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.  

One can err not knowing the scripture or believing them.

I choose to believe in the inerrancy of the word of God.  Which is freedom from error or untruths and infallibility. 

We here at Worthy Boards believe in the inerrancy  of the 66 books of the cannon.

At least you were being honest, in quoting that you however, do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture.       

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, Jewels7 said:

I don't think it fruitful for any Christian to imagine themselves like unto scum of the earth in God's sight. 

My righteousness is due to God's grace. I don't see it as like unto filthy rags when it is a gift of my father. I think many Christians fail when they think men's narratives in scripture are actually God's words. That the whole book cover to cover is Gods writing and not at all a reflection of the politic of the time, the cultural influences, etc.... 

I've attended services where Christians in chorus recite the self=deprecating mantra: Oh, Lord, though we know we're not worthy.....

What nonsense is that? God imagined we were worthy of dying for in the flesh as the son of man. All set into motion because God in his graceful way decided to show mercy to the human community that he damned in the beginning for the first mistake the first of us made. And we chant to Heaven we're not worthy of all that Jesus suffered to bring God's new covenant to earth? 
 

To each their own. 
It is a relationship after all.  

I am glad to hear that we are more than filthy rags. And we should not see our selfs as Believers in Jesus Christ as " filthy rags".  

 What kind of comparison the prophet was making with that statement. 

Because it looks like he was addressing his own culture and he included himself .

He must have made a retorical question, and it seems that he raised an issue for discussion. 

Certainly he was addressing the people of his own culture. 

These people had the Law of Moses and the Priesthood and the sacrifices, as a result the people were found with the righteousness that was attained through the obedience to the Law. 

And their obedience to the Law brought upon them the blessings that comes with the obedience to the Law. 

When the prophet said those judging words, was he calling the righteousness his conteborareis and himself  attained through the obedience to the Law , "filthy rags"? 

Did the prophet and some of the people when they got together they judge their righteousness by comparing them selves to the Law and come to the conclusion that their righteousness was as good as filthy rags? 

I don't think so, if they did they would repent, the way they were repenting that time. 

Then it must be a catch to the prophet's statement, and if it is, 

What is the point the prophet wanted to make. 

[Jewels7]

10 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are "all" as an unclean thing and "all" our righteousness are as "filthy rags;" and we "all" do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.  

One can err not knowing the scripture or believing them.

I choose to believe in the inerrancy of the word of God.  Which is freedom from error or untruths and infallibility. 

We here at Worthy Boards believe in the inerrancy  of the 66 books of the cannon.

At least you were being honest, in quoting that you however, do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture.       

Not even Bible scholars argue that God used his own finger to write the Bible.  
God inspired the Bible! Men and councils convened to create the books of the Bible. God is perfect. If you believe in the inerrancy of the  Bible then you must believe in the first Bible that had 72 books. Not 66. 

 

[Jewels7]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am glad to hear that we are more than filthy rags. And we should not see our selfs as Believers in Jesus Christ as " filthy rags".  

 What kind of comparison the prophet was making with that statement. 

Because it looks like he was addressing his own culture and he included himself .

He must have made a retorical question, and it seems that he raised an issue for discussion. 

Certainly he was addressing the people of his own culture. 

These people had the Law of Moses and the Priesthood and the sacrifices, as a result the people were found with the righteousness that was attained through the obedience to the Law. 

And their obedience to the Law brought upon them the blessings that comes with the obedience to the Law. 

When the prophet said those judging words, was he calling the righteousness his conteborareis and himself  attained through the obedience to the Law , "filthy rags"? 

Did the prophet and some of the people when they got together they judge their righteousness by comparing them selves to the Law and come to the conclusion that their righteousness was as good as filthy rags? 

I don't think so, if they did they would repent, the way they were repenting that time. 

Then it must be a catch to the prophet's statement, and if it is, 

What is the point the prophet wanted to make. 

It's like those who argue we are born sinners. Because they read the letter , the song, of king David when he stated and because he was made very aware that he was conceived in iniquity. In iniquity did my mother conceive me. 

The Psalms are songs of king David. He's speaking personally, his own letters, songs, to and of and about God and his own life. His mother as we read in the rest of David's writings, conceived him out of wedlock. His brothers were not fond of him for that reason, his family was not either. 

But there are people who read piecemeal the scriptures and then imagine we are born in what amounts to damnation and per other scriptures, by God's will and predetermination. Being he tells us he knew us before the womb. And before the creation. So God who gives us a soul allowed our soul to be property afterward of his adversary Satan. Being we're said to be born sinners. 
But when we're created by God's will we're pure since we're not born into this world of iniquity in which we were conceived? 
That would make abortion clinics the first church! Because anyone who thinks a baby is born damned would have to concede when they're killed in the womb they return, as scripture tells us about our dying, to the God that made them. 

 

There's nothing so tragic as to read a Christian claim they're unworthy of God's grace. And no thing they do in the spirit of Christ is anything but like unto a filthy rag. When we have God's holy spirit inside us leading us to demonstrate God's word and covenant of love there are those who claim our actions in the spirit of that holy God is like unto filthy rags. And we're perpetually unworthy of being the temple within which God's holy spirit dwells. (Oh God though I know I'm unworthy....) 

Sadly, those kind of believers demonstrate they need to be saved from that kind of unrighteous unholy thinking. Imagine how glad it makes God's enemy to know that despite all Christ died to do for the saints there are those who claim they are so that believe they're the lowest of the low all the time.  

[hmbld]

25 minutes ago, Jewels7 said:

It's like those who argue we are born sinners.

 

 

There's nothing so tragic as to read a Christian claim they're unworthy of God's grace.

Romans 5:18-19   Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous

 

From Gotquestions:  To summarize the difference: mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve, and grace is God blessing us despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mercy is deliverance from judgment. Grace is extending kindness to the unworthy.