Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Asking the saints in Heaven to pray for you is the same as asking those around you to pray for you. Same thing. Paul talks about us all being the members of the body of Christ in 1 Corthians 12:12-27

12 A man’s body is all one, though it has a number of different organs; and all this multitude of organs goes to make up one body; so it is with Christ. 13 We too, all of us, have been baptized into a single body by the power of a single Spirit, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free men alike; we have all been given drink at a single source, the one Spirit.[1] 14 The body, after all, consists not of one organ but of many; 15 if the foot should say, I am not the hand, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that? 16 If the ear should say, I am not the eye, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that?17 Where would the power of hearing be, if the body were all eye? Or the power of smell, if the body were all ear? 18 As it is, God has given each one of them its own position in the body, as he would. 19 If the whole were one single organ, what would become of the body? 20 Instead of that, we have a multitude of organs, and one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee, or the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 On the contrary, it is those parts of our body which seem most contemptible that are necessary to it; 23 what seems base in our bodies, we surround with special honour, treating with special seemliness that which is unseemly in us, 24 whereas that which is seemly in us has no need of it. Thus God has established a harmony in the body, giving special honour to that which needed it most. 25 There was to be no want of unity in the body; all the different parts of it were to make each other’s welfare their common care.26 If one part is suffering, all the rest suffer with it; if one part is treated with honour, all the rest find pleasure in it. 27 And you are Christ’s body, organs of it depending upon each other.

 

So Shiloh I guess my question for you is... When you die and go to heaven are you removed from the body of Christ? I do not believe those in Heaven are removed from the body of Christ and therefore this passage applies equally to them as it does those still on earth.

Asking people to pray for you here on earth. is scriptural.  Asking people who are in heaven to pray for you  is not in the Bible.   The Body of Christ is not in heaven.  The Body of Christ is located only on earth.  In fact nowhere in the Bible is the Body of Christ ever located in Heaven.

The passage you are quoting has to do with the operations of the Body of Christ on earth.  The members of Body are analogous to the various members and how they function in the human body.  Paul is drawing this analogy for earthly believers.   If he was including people in heaven, he would have mentioned it here.

Again, I believe the Bible.  I am a Christian, and true, authentic New Testament Christians don't pray to people in heaven.  The RCC does, but true Christians reject that apostate doctrine.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Shiloh:

 

So you believe that you are separated from Christ once you enter into heaven? Can you show me in the bible where is says that?

[Guest shiloh357]

13 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Shiloh:

 

So you believe that you are separated from Christ once you enter into heaven? Can you show me in the bible where is says that?

You are not separated from Christ in heaven.   But you are no longer a member of the earthly body of Christ, either.   The relationship we have with Jesus will far different than it is on earth and our relationship with those in heaven will be different than our relationship with those believers on earth.  

It is a mistake to think that what we have on earth  is just like what is in heaven.  Our relationships with Jesus and other believers will be completely different after we pass into eternity.

And yes  we are separated from other believers who are still living on the earth.   For example, once a person's spouse has died, the marriage covenant between them is over.  If not, then the living spouse would be committing adultery by getting remarried to someone else.   There is a necessary cessation of earthly relationships when we go to heaven.

Praying to saints is a worthless practice.   In the first place, there is no promise from the Bible that people in heaven can hear us or communicate with us.   Secondly, we are invited by Scripture to approach the Throne of Grace directly and boldy  to seek God's help.

The beauty of what Christ did on the cross is that (according to Hebrews) he has provided us direct access to God through Jesus.  We don't have to go through human priests anymore.  That's why the veil is rent.    Thirdly, if we were supposed to go through people who had already passed on, that would be in the Bible.   But it's not.  

Praying to dead saints contradicts the Bible's teaching on prayer.  EVERY piece of instruction we have about prayer is about praying directly to God.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Okay I'll ask again. Where in the bible does it say that when you die you are separated from the body of Christ. 

We both agree that while on earth we become members of the body of Christ, so where does it say that when you die you become separated?

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Okay I'll ask again. Where in the bible does it say that when you die you are separated from the body of Christ. 

We both agree that while on earth we become members of the body of Christ, so where does it say that when you die you become separated?

The Bible doesn't make that claim, but it doesn't have to.  The Bible also doesn't prohibit gang rape.  Do we need chapter and verse for us to know that gang rape is a sin?

Your applying the wrong standard.    When we are in heaven, we are no long indwelled by the Holy Spirit.  We are complete renewed, we have new sinless bodies, we are able to view the unfiltered glory of God.  Nothing about what we are in heaven is like what we are on earth.

Paul's analogy about the Body of Christ is pertains to ministry on earth and the use of the gifts of the Spirit.   Those gifts were given to empower the church on the earth and Paul drew the analogy to make the additional point that one person's service to the Lord is no more or less important than any other.   We value our pinky toe just as much as we value our heart and lungs.  We don't want to lose any part of our body.   

You are completely missing the point about what Paul was teaching about the Body of Christ.   He wasn't speaking to a mystical relationship, nor did he declare it to be eternal.  He was drawing an analogy to emphasize that all members have a part to play and all roles in the Body are equally important to the overall health of the Body.

I could easily come back and ask you to prove from the Bible that the Body of Christ still exists in Heaven.   You can't; because it doesn't say that.

The assumption that all relationships continue on into eternity just as they are on earth is fallacious and I have demonstrated that marriage doesn't exist outside of eternity.  The only application of the Body of Christ given in Scripture is earthly.  The Body of Christ is located only on earth, in the Bible.

Having said that, it is important to understand that the Family of God is not bound to earth but exists on earth and in heaven according to Paul.   But one should not confuse the Family of God with the Body of Christ.   Two different relationships, altogether.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Simply put, there is something a bit creepy and silly, to pray to dead people, when we have direct access to God.

It matters not, how or when this pratcice became a practice, when it did, and where it does, is an error. Perhaps Paul was just clueless when he instructed Timothy:

 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God,and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 

If one is praying to a person, are they not attempting to substitute a mediator other than Jesus. Mary, is not the mediatrix, nor can any dead saint mediate between man and God. Living saints (normal everyday believers) can pray for others, but they are not mediators, they are just people using their own direct access to God. There is little to no scriptural reason, that I am aware of, to assume that dead people in Heaven can even hear our prayers. The likely do not receive tweets in Heaven. Why would anyone want to pray to deceased people, when they have direct access to the living God, the Creator of the universe? That seems to me, a bit like going to a fellow employee at work, to ask them for a raise.

[Omegaman 3.0]

. . . ann Shiloh is quite right, a too often overlooked yet pervasive fallacy, is to think that the lack of something in the Bible, makes it permissible.  Arguments from silence reveal nothing to us.

[Ezra]

On 07/12/2015, 21:34:27, thereselittleflower said:

gdemoss nothing could be further from the truth.   I am simply demonstrating the contradiction between words and actions. Criticizing others for going to someone else for prayer when you yourself go to others for prayer is absolutely contradictory.   

There is absolutely NO EQUIVALENCE between asking Christians on earth to pray for us, and approaching Catholic *saints* presumably in Heaven.  Given the fact that in Catholicism a saint must be *canonized* because he/she has special merits, that already puts them in a separate class.  Given the fact that Mary is literally worshipped and treated as Divine, that puts her in an entirely different class altogether.  And let's face it, Mary gets all the devotion, worship and attention which rightfully belongs to Christ.  So we are comparing apples and oranges, and this Catholic argument that there are no differences is disingenuous at best.

[hmbld]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

There is absolutely NO EQUIVALENCE between asking Christians on earth to pray for us, and approaching Catholic *saints* presumably in Heaven.  Given the fact that in Catholicism a saint must be *canonized* because he/she has special merits, that already puts them in a separate class.  Given the fact that Mary is literally worshipped and treated as Divine, that puts her in an entirely different class altogether.  And let's face it, Mary gets all the devotion, worship and attention which rightfully belongs to Christ.  So we are comparing apples and oranges, and this Catholic argument that there are no differences is disingenuous at best.

I'd agree. And if God made us for relationships, both with God and with others, we need each other, so asking others to pray with/for us, is part of a relationship. If you pray to a dead "saint", where is the relationship?  Essentially your making this dead saint a little god who has special favor in God's sight. Nope, ain't happening. 

[B3L13v3R]

22 hours ago, Ezra said:

O Holy St Jude! 
Apostle and Martyr,
great in virtue and rich in miracles,
near kinsman of Jesus Christ,
faithful intercessor for all who invoke you,
special patron in time of need;
to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart,
and humbly beg you,
to whom God has given such great power,
to come to my assistance;
help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition.
I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me
and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you. Amen.

 

St. Jude, pray for us and all who honor thee and invoke thy aid.
(Say 3 Our Father's, 3 Hail Mary’s, and 3 Glory Be’s after this.)

 

Note that in addition to saying a prayer to St. Jude, we can invoke his aid by offering Holy Masses and Communions in his honor. We can also engage in charitable works in his name.

The addendum at the end of this "praying to a dead saint prayer" is Scripturally amiss as well.
Any form of over and over repetitious prayers are forbidden by God. He is not listening, and neither are the dead.

Matthew 6:7
“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

However, the enemy is listening...
Repetitious prayers, chants, Eastern meditation of any kind can often lead to an altered state of consciousness. A form of self hypnosis.
The Emerging church is deeply entrenched in this heresy also.
An "angel of light" is often standing by to influence those who practice these things, all the while portraying itself as a (false) christ.

 2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.