Once Saved , Always Saved ?

[angels4u]

27 minutes ago, Butero said:

I can't ever imagine giving up the Christian life, but there are probably many out there that became completely apostate that were once followers of Jesus and never dreamed they would quit the faith.  We don't know what can happen down the road, but as of today, December 10, 2015, I can't imagine ever quitting Jesus.  He has the words of life. 

We were told to watch how we live in order to make our calling and election sure.  In Revelation, it says that it is those that overcome that will be saved.   There is a whole list of sins that Paul says will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven, so I know if I do those things, and believe scripture, I won't make it to heaven.  We don't all sin everyday.  Certainly we don't commit intentional sins everyday.  I don't know of any sins (transgressions of the law) I committed since I got up this morning at 1 AM to begin my work day.  If you can go an hour without sin, why do you ever have to sin, and I know anyone can do that. 

There is no reason to fear losing salvation if one simply chooses to shun the wrong and do the right.  If we do mess up, or think we may have, we have but to confess those sins and Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.  The problem I have with your position is that while you can certainly give scriptures that seem to indicate you cannot lose salvation, I can give scriptures that seem to indicate you most certainly can.  Then you will come along and say my scriptures cannot be applying to Christians because they can't lose salvation, and I will say your scriptures cannot mean you are eternally secure because they contradict my scriptures.  This is the pattern I have observed over the years, and pre-destination and election is the only thing that reconciles this.  Typical Baptist doctrines have serious holes in them, and so do those who cannot explain why the Bible indicates those God gave to Christ will remain saved. 

If we were to begin a serious back and forth right now, you would post your favorite OSAS scriptures, and I would counter with scriptures that say in absolute terms certain behaviors will keep you out of heaven, things eternal security believing Christians have been known to do.  Nothing is ever figured out because everyone is missing the point that God alone chooses who will be saved and lost, and it is possible to think you are saved when you are not.  You could think you are of the elect but not be.  So could I.  If we are really among God's elect, we won't fall away. 

Hi Butero,

First my apologies for addressing you in the post with fear Butero , that mend to be dear Butero lol

In no way I'm going to post scripture forth and back for the sake of winning an argument or showing you wrong..

Just one verse :

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,…t one verse: Roman 8:37

To God be all the glory forever !

You said ,you didn't think you sinned today...was everything you thought pure and holy and your words to your family were all loving? To say you have no sin is sin , that is pride..

Do you believe God will lie and not keep us if He promised to keep us until the end?

I am His and He is mine

I actually wonder if you believe that I am saved?

Glory hallelujah, I shall not be moved
Anchored in Jehovah, I shall not be moved
Just like a tree that's planted by the waters
I shall not be moved

In His love abiding, I shall not be moved
And in Him confiding, I shall not be moved
Just like the tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

I shall not be, I shall not be moved
I shall not be, I shall not be moved
Just like a tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

Though all hell assail me, I shall not be moved
Jesus will not fail me, I shall not be moved
Just like the tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

Though the tempest rages, I shall not be moved
On the rock of ages, I shall not be moved
Just like the tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

I shall not be, I shall not be moved
I shall not be, I shall not be moved
Just like the tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

I shall not be, I shall not be moved
I shall not be, I shall not be moved
Just like the tree that's planted by the water
I shall not be moved

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Quote

What strikes me is that IF (a big "if" in my understanding) a person, is able to come to God, by his free will, when he is Spitiually blind, spiritually ignorant, spiritually deaf, has a hard heart, is an enemy of God, is in bondage to sin, is not good and does not seek God (all of these things are scriptural descriptions of the unbeleiver, then certainly once he has been allowed to see, hear, understand, given a new heart, freed from the bondage of sin etc, there is no way a person who has been changed for the better, will make a worse decision than an unregenerate person did. That strikes me as patently absurd, I cannot entertain that notion.

I don't think a person will come to the Lord unless the Lord draws him.  But at the same time, I don't think the Lord only draws the "unconditionally elect," as I don't believe in that concept.     I believe that there is wooing that must take place and a person has the freewill to reject that call.  But left to our own devices, none of us would ever seek the Lord.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

This issue is debated because many do not really understand what salvation is, nor do they understand that there is not a single thing which anyone can do for their own salvation.  It is totally and purely by God's grace, and totally and purely based on the merits of Christ and His finished work of redemption. They also do not understand that the ones who are saved by God's grace are also KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD (1 Pet 1:5).

Exactly right, and from my perspective, to think otherwise, is to take some credit, for the work and grace of God, instead of giving all the glory to Him.

[hmbld]

9 minutes ago, Butero said:

Then you must agree with me that if you are saved, it is by election alone, because those who claim they got saved praying a sinner's prayer at an old fashioned alter can take some credit for being saved by a work they did. 

If I give you a gift Butero, what credit can you have in the offering of the gift?

the sinners prayer is not the thing doing the saving, rather it may be the spoken acknowledgement of God. We have no credit, only gratitude. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, Butero said:

 

4 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Exactly right, and from my perspective, to think otherwise, is to take some credit, for the work and grace of God, instead of giving all the glory to Him.

Then you must agree with me that if you are saved, it is by election alone, because those who claim they got saved praying a sinner's prayer at an old fashioned alter can take some credit for being saved by a work they did

 

I do not know if I agree with you on everything, I doubt I read everything you said, but, with respect to what I quoted above . . .

I would agree there absolutely. I prayed a version of the sinners prayer once, and from that day forward, I tried to lead a life in compliance with God's will, and I never looked back, never wanted to quit, and was never tempted to fight with God, to be mad at Him, etc. I never had one doubt about Him since. I have however, in thos past 30 plus years, had doubts about my salvation, not because of any shortcoming of His, but in recognition that I had shortcomings, that were not in keeping with the faith I professed.

Since that time, I have matured in my knowledge of His word, and now understand that when I made that prayer, that did not procure my salvation. All that was, was me, recognizing my need for a savior, because it was God, who called me, who drew me, who cinvicted me of my sin, and gave me a heart to repent. I was only in reality, recognizing in my spirit, what God had done for me, before I asked Him to save me. Had my theology been caught up to my spiritual status, I would not have asked Him to come into my live, but would have thanked Him for doing so, as I kow thank Him for keeping me.

[hmbld]

4 minutes ago, Butero said:

I can say the same thing about abstaining from sin.  Without grace, you would still be lost, so in that sense, you can't take credit for it, but you still had to do something.  Saying a sinner's prayer is an act you did to aid in your salvation.  If you weren't saved without it, that means you had a part in your salvation. 

I was pondering your wording after I posted, wondering if I misunderstood your post. If you insist by accepting a free gift, you can take credit, well I see the train of thought but disagree with the concept. 

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, Butero said:

I can say the same thing about abstaining from sin.  Without grace, you would still be lost, so in that sense, you can't take credit for it, but you still had to do something.  Saying a sinner's prayer is an act you did to aid in your salvation.  If you weren't saved without it, that means you had a part in your salvation. 

no one is saved when the recite the sinner's prayer.  You're saved the moment your heart says, "yes" to Jesus.  (Rom. 10: 9,10).   The sinner's prayer is  nothing but a point of contact.  It is for your benefit not God.  It is something you do so that you can look back and know that on a particular date, you accepted Jesus. It has no bearing on salvation.  Many say yes to Jesus without saying a prayer or signing a card. 

Salvation by faith alone doesn't mean you didn't do something, obviously you had to make a decision to accept Jesus, so you did something.   Salvation by faith alone means that you don't do anything meritorious to deserve salvation.  No act of piety, or charity, nothing we would classify as a good or meritorious deed was performed to earn points with God toward salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Butero said:

First of all, I agree that simply reciting a sinner's prayer doesn't save you.  I also agree with you that if you said yes to Jesus, you did something to take part in your salvation, if that is indeed what saved you.  If it was God calling you and you saying yes, your salvation is 50 percent God's calling and 50 percent your acceptance.  If on the other hand, your salvation was already settled in the mind of God before you were created in the womb, and your saying yes or saying a prayer was just you acknowledgment of what God already did, salvation is 100 percent God and 0 percent you.  The prayer and confession didn't have any part in it, and there is nothing to boast of. 

Obviously, there is nothing a person can do to earn salvation, since the wages of any sin is death, including original sin.  Someone had to pay the price, and that was Jesus Christ.  He died to pay for the sin debt owed by the elect.  That one blood atonement was sufficient to save everyone, but God doesn't choose everyone.  Every person is called, but few are actually chosen.  Peter was chosen, and God revealed his Son to him.  Flesh and blood didn't do it, the Father did.  On the other hand, Judas Iscariot was not chosen to be saved, so true faith was withheld from him.  Though traditions says Peter died upside down on a cross as a martyr, nothing he did including that saved him.  What saved him was he was chosen of God to be saved, so he believed.  Good works followed his genuine faith. 

God doesn't choose anyone for salvation.   When it says, that many are called, but few are chosen, it refers to service, not salvation.  God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance according to Peter.   Salvation is offered to everyone, not to some select group.  

There would be no reason for God to call 100 people to salvation, but only save 30.   That makes no sense in the light of Jesus' comment that "whoseever" believes will not perish.  Paul also said that "all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

In the Exodus, our first real typology of salvation/redemption, EVERYONE who put the blood on their doorposts were saved.   God didn't tell all of them to do it, but then just keep his word to a few of them.   That would make God untrustworthy.   All who looked at the serpent on the pole were healed and that served as Jesus' statement that if He were lifted up he would draw all men to Himself.

I really don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says or even hints that God only chooses some to be saved.

[hmbld]

This 50% is new to me!  If I get a gift on Christmas can I just say I'll take 50% of the credit for this gift instead of saying thank you?  Lol

[Ezra]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I really don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says or even hints that God only chooses some to be saved.

Here's what God says (1 Tim 3:1-4):

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all, then it follows that God will have all men to be saved, hence the exhortation to pray for all men.