Once Saved , Always Saved ?

[SINNERSAVED]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

WARNING! THOSE WHO ARE ALLERGIC TO CALVINISM - SHOULD NOT READ THIS

I tend to beleive in OSAS, and agree with many that no one of us, is certain of who is and who is not saved. However, I decided to post on this, because of the comment above about "pretending".

The Bible speaks of those (sometimes referred to as tares - counterfeits, that look just like the real thing. Jesus said in essence, let the angels sort them out, for now, they dwell among believers (rough paraphrase).

I think that it is possible, that there are those who believe intellectually, that Jesus is who He says He is. They might go to church, read the Bible, do acts of service etc. However, it might be that these people believe they are saved, but are not. In that case, the are not pretending at all. Consider:

  21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The people pictured there, have some pretty decent credentials. Personally, I have not cast out demons and performed miracles. Now, note that Jesus said, "I never knew you".

Personally, and many will argue with me on this point, I think that Jesus is not talking about knowing them, in the sense we usually think of the word. Of course Jesus knew them, He knew there names, what they had done, etc. However, it is my belief that often, the Bible uses the word knowledge, knowing etc, as a euphemism for intimacy, just as it sometimes refers to death with the word "sleep".

Adam knew his wife, and she bore Cain. Joseph did not know Mary, until after she bore a son. In Sodom, the evil men wanted to have the visitors brought out, so the could know them. Sorry that those three examples, are all sexual, but they do demonstrate a type of intimate knowledge, that is something more than mere awareness or head knowledge.

I think we see this also, in verses like:

 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8)

Now certainly, that speaks to something more than just knowing the future. In terms of knowing the future, God knows it all - more on that in a minute. When seen through the lens of understanding knowledge as referring to relationship or intimacy, it makes sense that God would save those with whom He chose to have a relationship with.

Continuing in Romans 9, Paul develops this a bit further when he points out:

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

There God is shown to have a relationship, with those who had not done anything, one not based in works of any sort, but only to serve God's sovereign choice and purpose, the credit goes only to "Him who calls".

So, back to God knowing the future, in the more normal sense, lets pretend that God is not speaking of fore-intimacy, but only fore-understanding. What if that is the case? Nothing changes. God knows who is saved, and who is not, they are in fact chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4, ! Pet 1:20, John 17:24, etc., speak to the fact that God does not have a plan B).

If God knows something will happen, then it WILL happen. God's understand does not switch back and forth, as people become saved and then become unsaved etc. He knows what will happen, and that is what will happen. It might seem to us, that we can lose salvation, but to God, it is a done deal. If He sees that you are saved, then that is what you are. We do not become saved, when we profess faith, we are already saved, we were chosen to receive faith, and when God gives us that faith, when he grants us understanding, when He grants us repentance (all of which are taught in scripture) we have the new birth, we are born from above. THEN we can make a profession of faith, we love Him, because He first loved us - there is that intimacy again.

That at least, is my opinion.

 

 

that was well said ,omegaman3.0, and I accept those examples, that was a great break down,

[Ezra]

18 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

would i be wrong by opposing this view ?

Sure you would be wrong. Please see what the Bible has to say about the gift of eternal life.

[Ezra]

15 hours ago, ghtan said:

What then do we do with the story of Judas? He was chosen/elect (Lk 6:13). 

Judas was NOT chosen to be saved, but chosen to betray Christ. The Lord knew his heart from the very beginning. Since Judas is called "the son of perdition" he was not saved to begin with, but was similar to Simon the Sorcerer.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

that was well said ,omegaman3.0, and I accept those examples, that was a great break down,

Thank you, your reply was very kind.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Judas was NOT chosen to be saved, but chosen to betray Christ. The Lord knew his heart from the very beginning. Since Judas is called "the son of perdition" he was not saved to begin with, but was similar to Simon the Sorcerer.

Exactly.

[Ezra]

19 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I don't know if this topic has gone around, but it is interesting that there is a common debate on this , once saved always saved, ...

This issue is debated because many do not really understand what salvation is, nor do they understand that there is not a single thing which anyone can do for their own salvation.  It is totally and purely by God's grace, and totally and purely based on the merits of Christ and His finished work of redemption. They also do not understand that the ones who are saved by God's grace are also KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD (1 Pet 1:5).

[angels4u]

30 minutes ago, Butero said:

I must disagree with your post.  A large portion of the Christian church believes you can fall away.  I know all the churches that trace their roots back to Wesley believe that.  The majority of the churches that believe in OSAS are either tracing their roots back to Luther or Calvin.   Your comment that "the people who think they can fall away are the people not really saved from the beginning" is false to me.  I don't believe you must believe in OSAS to be saved. 

You do make the point that "if we are really saved we would not want to sin."  I agree with that, so what of those eternal security people that said a sinner's prayer but want to sin and do so on a regular basis, often times worse than people who never claimed to be saved?  What about you if you were to turn away from God in the future?  I agree that the elect will never lose their salvation, but I don't agree with those who think there is no way they can ever be lost, no matter what they do, simply because they prayed the sinners prayer.  The eternal security believers are always willing to suggest others may be deceived into thinking themselves saved when they are not, but that could never be the case with them.  They are sure they are eternally secure, even if they completely reject God down the line. 

If you believe you are saved as a result of saying a prayer, that is salvation by works.  God didn't save you, you saved yourself by your decision.  The only way God is completely in control is if you accept the fact that those who are saved are pre-destined to be saved and are only saved by God's choice.  If you believe, it is because the Father revealed Jesus Christ to you.  Without that, you can not be saved. 

Fear Butero,

Only God knows who are His children and who are not, I just go by what the Bible is promising after accepting Jesus, if I believe I can fall away I would live in fear , wouldn't you? Jesus wants us to trust Him that He will help us to live our Christian life through the Holy Spirit.

How can you ever judge a truly born again Christian and make them afraid they can lose their Salvation?

We sin everyday and which sin can keep us out of heaven? The sin of unbelieve ,not believing that Jesus died for your and my sins and nothing else, everything else is grace +work..

We are saved by grace not by anything we can do our self. If we love Jesus we want to do His will and if we fail He will pick us up .

I'm so glad to be secure in His arms and NOBODY can take that away from me.

Would you ever dream of giving up the Christian life..knowing what is ahead of us?

What can keep you out of heaven?

 

 

[enoob57]

Those born of God know it! It isn't guess work... and I know it was not by anything I have done but His Work on the cross alone that I am able to be
eternally secure in Him! If you doubt this in your own experience then you are coming on the merit of something other than Christ The Lord...  Love, Steven

[Ezra]

5 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

I'm not sure if they were ever saved,  but many I've seen and heard in 'church' or who say they believe the Bible still say they won't give up even their furniture let alone anything really valuable  -  and they admit trusting the government to feed them instead of God to take care of them when it comes down to making a choice of one or the other.... 

Simplejeff,

It does not matter what some people may say or do. That is not your concern.  Our responsibility is to preach the Gospel and teach the truth about salvation.  Only God knows the hearts. There will be wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats, but all will have the label of "Christian". What everyone needs to hear is summed up in Eph 2:8-10:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Omegaman 3.0]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I think some people think salvation is just a change of status, as if God just moves us from one side of the ledger to the other side. But that is not the case.   Salvation a re-creation of our heart and no genuine follower of Jesus will ever fall away.    It's like having an infant child, or grandchild.   You have the power to do harm to that child, but there is nothing in you that would ever do such a thing.    In the same way, we have the power to walk away from the Lord, but the re-created heart of a authentic child of God will never walk away from Him.

So, contrary to what the enemies of sound doctrine teach, eternal security isn't a teaching that says you can sin all you want and stay saved.   Eternal Security assumes that you are true believer who isn't looking for a way to sin.   It doesn't presume sinless perfection, but it does assume that you are pursuing holiness and a godly way of living.  

Well, I think that salvation has as a component, a moving from one side of the ledger to the other. We are positionally saved, past tense - iwe have been declared "not guilty", even though we have certainly sinned, it is not counted against us, we were pardoned before the foundation of the world, in the foreknowledge of God, the penatly was paid, the ransom, our bail so to speak, at the cross, that was also in the past. That penalty was to cover sins that we had not yet commited or even thought of yet. However, you are entirel correct, I beleive ,to point out that those who say it is just a change of status, are wrong. I agree also, with everything else you said in the quote above.

Salvation is something that has already happened in the past, is happening in the present, and will happen in the future. Closely tied to that is santification, which is also spoken of, in scripture, as past, present, and future. This seems to me, altogether fitting, for God, who inhabited eternity, when time (a part of creation) was not in existence. YHWH, even His "name" implies a timelessness, I was, I am, and I will be, or as Revelation puts it:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Eternal security is not, as you point out, a license to sin, not a get out of Jail free card. It doest speak to a transformation of a person, so that having the mind of Christ, would never choose to walk away: However, that still is His doing, not ours:

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. " Phill 1:6 

What strikes me is that IF (a big "if" in my understanding) a person, is able to come to God, by his free will, when he is Spitiually blind, spiritually ignorant, spiritually deaf, has a hard heart, is an enemy of God, is in bondage to sin, is not good and does not seek God (all of these things are scriptural descriptions of the unbeleiver, then certainly once he has been allowed to see, hear, understand, given a new heart, freed from the bondage of sin etc, there is no way a person who has been changed for the better, will make a worse decision than an unregenerate person did. That strikes me as patently absurd, I cannot entertain that notion.

So, free will or not, predestination or not, salvation is eternal, becuase it is God who performs it, and He is tranforming the chosen to conform to the image of His Son, who always did the will of the Father. In our new nature, it is outside of our nature, to chose to walk away from the free gift, that our loving Father has provided through the work of His Son, on the cross, on our behalf. Jesus did not do that for nothing, he did not do that in the hope that we will be saved, instead, He purchased us, and yet, at the same time, we are God's gift to His Son (John 17), and God will not take that gift back, and we have no authority, to ungive what God has given.