Matthew 23:8

[Pamelasv]

I wonder how many questions are too much within a certain time in here.  

Why do churches not heed this?  

'But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 'Do call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant.'   Why are Paul's writings contradictory to this?  So then, does it matter which you choose to go by? I would think it would be better to heed this, since Jesus said it, according to the gospel of Matthew.  Seems like Worthy does this by calling the mods servants.  

 

 

 

 

[*Zion*]

Hi again, Pam, merry Christmas

Where does Paul tell us to call people father and teacher?  I can't think of any references off the top of my head, and you've got me quite intrigued.  Please share the scriptures and we can take a look together.

Your sis in Christ

[Deborah_]

What Paul said is this:

(to the Corinthians) "In Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (I Corinthians 4:15)

(of Onesimus) "He became my son while I was in chains." (Philemon 10)

The father/son relationship is used to describe that someone was converted as a result of Paul's preaching. These were his spiritual 'children'. 

But he didn't tell Christians in general to address him as 'father', and there is no hint that anyone did. So I don't see any contradiction with what Jesus said.

[other one]

1 hour ago, *Zion* said:

Hi again, Pam, merry Christmas

Where does Paul tell us to call people father and teacher?  I can't think of any references off the top of my head, and you've got me quite intrigued.  Please share the scriptures and we can take a look together.

Your sis in Christ

I think it comes from here

For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (1 Corinthians 4:15 ESV)

 

He's speaking of a relationship in my personal view and not ok'ing a name for himself or others.....

[Ezra]

8 hours ago, Pamelasv said:

 Why do churches not heed this?  

The Jewish religious leaders had taken to accepting and assigning various titles to themselves (Father, Rabbi, etc.) to show their spiritual superiority. The Catholic church adopted the same practice with a hierarchy of clergy (Father, Reverend, Right Reverend, Doctor, Cardinal, etc. up to the Pope).  Protestants did not reject this even though it was expressly forbidden by Christ.  Today we have a lot of "Doctors" and "Reverends" who should really be calling themselves "Brothers".  The reason churches do not heed this teaching is that they mix the commandments of God with the doctrines of men.

[thereselittleflower]

14 hours ago, Pamelasv said:

I wonder how many questions are too much within a certain time in here.  

Why do churches not heed this?  

'But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 'Do call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant.'   Why are Paul's writings contradictory to this?  So then, does it matter which you choose to go by? I would think it would be better to heed this, since Jesus said it, according to the gospel of Matthew.  Seems like Worthy does this by calling the mods servants.  

 

 

 

 

 

One needs to understand that Jesus often used hyperbole, which is an over exaggeration to make a point.  Jesus did not literally mean call no man father, just as he didn't literally mean for us to pluck out our eyes or cut off our hands or feet.

If one does not recognize hyperbole when they encouter it in scripture, and if one believes one is to take such statements ultra literally, and is going to obey them, then one is going to end up handless, feetless and eyeless and miss the entire point of Jesus' words.

This is why Paul is able to refer to himself as father to the christians he writes to without contradicting Jesus' words.

[thereselittleflower]

12 hours ago, *Zion* said:

Hi again, Pam, merry Christmas

Where does Paul tell us to call people father and teacher?  I can't think of any references off the top of my head, and you've got me quite intrigued.  Please share the scriptures and we can take a look together.

Your sis in Christ

Paul does so by example.

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child - this directly implies Paul is his spiritual father:

• "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17);
• "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2);
• "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2). 

He also referred to Timothy as his son - thi directly implies Paul is his spiritual father:

• "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18) 
• "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1) 
• "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22) 

Paul refers to others in the same way - this directly implies Paul is their spiritual father:

• "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4) 
• "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10).
   

Explicit statement by Paul of his spiritual fatherhood to believers in his charge - directly states he is their spiritual father : 

• "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15). 

Peter also referred to Mark as his son -  this directly implies Peter is his spiritual father:

• "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13).

Entire churches under their care as their children.

Paul:

• "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14)
• "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19). 

John:

• "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1) 
• "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4) 

John explicitly calls others in the congregations  "father" (1 John 2:13–14). 

 

 

 

[gdemoss]

Greetings Pam!  I love the simplicity of your mind and the goldness of your heart.

Churches need to hear it because Jesus taught that Gentile human governors lorded over one another weilding power and fear to drive the people like beasts rather than brethren.  

Jesus does not govern his own that way.  Jesus taught by example that we should think of others more than self.  First by coming in the form of a human at all and secondly by the gentle life he lived.  Do you think Obama would take me out to dinner then wash my feet after we ate?

Ruling under Jesus is quite different though it can be a bit messy like giving a guy over to Satan for the punishment of his flesh because he won't stop laying with his father's wife.  I spend a lot of time teaching others in my ministry to be still and know that He is God and that it is actually Him who takes vengeance after whatever manner he so chooses.  They need only search themselves, confess their own sin and right their own wrongs that God not judge them like Paul spoke of when he said there  were many who were sick, weak and others who had died.

In the end of all things Jesus will deliver up the kingdom unto God the Father having subdued all unto him.  Even Pharoah was raised up for a purpose.  God wanted to show his mighty power of deliverance and needed an adversary to do so.  This whole thing is about God the Father at its core and the created thing learning to submit unto him.  Men who think they are something because they bare a title like President are idiots if they think they are anything but Gods puppet.  They should learn to serve rather than lord over, especially Gods people!

[*Zion*]

I think the thing to take away from all this that you can be something to someone without having to impose yourself on them.  I can seek someone's good and in the process begin to influence them for good, and they will accept it better that way rather than me simply seeking to impose my authority on them.  

Many people are after titles, and yet are not willing to undertake the service that those titles come with.  The leaders of churches are the servants of churches.  

I serve my kids.  From day one, I fed them from my own body, changed their dirty nappies, lulled them to sleep, they depended upon me for everything, but the more they grow, the more independent they become.  But guess what?  I'm still Mummy and so I still serve them.  I do not demand that I should still have them in nappies to change them myself - they are now potty trained, and are able to go by themselves to the toilet, thank you very much!   It's ridiculous to do that, but it's equally ridiculous for me to simply leave them to everything, have them fend for themselves at ages 3 and 5, and still expect to have a mother-child relationship with them, though they may still call me Mummy.  

The title is not the issue.  We are called to serve, and that in love.  Be fathers and good influences, yes, but do no simply seek titles, as many are in the habit of doing.

God bless you Pam, thanks for your questions, they are good reminders of God's Word.

[enoob57]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 11:41 AM, Pamelasv said:

I wonder how many questions are too much within a certain time in here.  

Why do churches not heed this?  

'But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 'Do call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant.'   Why are Paul's writings contradictory to this?  So then, does it matter which you choose to go by? I would think it would be better to heed this, since Jesus said it, according to the gospel of Matthew.  Seems like Worthy does this by calling the mods servants.  

 

 

 

 

If I understand you correctly ? A leader/teacher is one who only brings to Christ's Word and aids them to begin being taught
by The Holy Spirit of God through that Word... first milk then meat then encourages them in growth there after.  Love, Steven