The idol shepherd

[other one]

5 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

I'm confused at to what you mean by 'idol shepherd'.  It's actually 'idle shepherd' in the Bible.  Totally different word meanings.

it is actually Idol Shepard...    Hebrew word

 

OT:457
    
OT:457 lyl!a$
 'eliyl (el-eel'); apparently from OT:408; good for nothing, by anal. vain or vanity; specifically an idol:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[kwikphilly]

Little Flower,,,,,,

   Nice of you to copy /paste the definitions you found BUT a "transliteration" is in fact not "a" word,,,,,,,It is the conversion of a text from one script to another.Leave the "teaching" to qualified teachers please,,,,,,,,,,,,                                 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Little Flower

      In no way ,shape or form was my post intended as a "dig" to you or anyone else,,,,,you do not know me very well but if you did then you would know I do not make "digs",passive aggressive remarks or insinuations of any kind or at any time,,,,,I get straight to the point & address whoever I am speaking to

    The fact is,you are not a teacher nor does this Ministry permit anyone to "teach" here,unless part of the Ministry Team(those recognized as qualified),,,,you are not permitted to teach here   This is not the first time you have posted in a way that sounds like "teaching"   Just because you are not a fan of the KJV you cannot tell people what you disagree with is a mis-translation plus your interpretation of the Scriptures is only that,,,,,,,,,,

Quote

The entire chapter if Zechariah 11 is talking about shepherds in the plural.   Not about a specific futuristic anti-christ shepherd, but about the shepherds right then and there when it was written.

Many people read these discussions,not just the people posting & we must be mindful of that ALWAYS,,,,,,,,"definitions" of words are indeed very helpful but clearly you have misunderstood what I was pointing out,,,,,,your post indicated that a "word" was being translated which is not going to help anyone because it is incorrect,,,,if you read other ones post perhaps you will understand how to use dictionarys & concordances properly when studying "transliterations"......as I tried to explain to you in my post,,,,,,,,you cannot always use the "word for word" method,it does not work in this case

Quote

the conversion of a text from one script to another

Your explanation of a primary & a secondary meaning is not going to help anyone because it is inaccurate,,,,,,,,,,it is a Hebrew word that cannot translate & must be transliterated,,,,,,,,,,,(again,other one gave the proper definition,,,,,,nothing to add because it is quite clear)

I truly don't care whether you approve of the KJV or not,,,,,,,also,your assumption about what I think of the KJV has nothing to do with anything,,,,,,I do not need to defend Gods Word in any version,translation or text,,,,,,,,,,,if we "lean not on our own understanding"the Holy Spirit reveals to us Gods Truth in all,,,,,,, God Bless you,you needn't be defensive or combative,,,,,,I love you,Jesus loves you & may we all receive Gods Blessings of Wisdon & Understanding,,,,,                                                                                Love,in Christ,Kwik

 

[*Zion*]

I agree with Kwik.  And I understand that people have their different opinions, but what I am after is the piece of the puzzle God has given each participant to add.  As you can see, none of us have the monopoly on God's revelation.  Let us not be so arrogant to think that we do.  Just bring your piece of the puzzle that the Holy Spirit gives you, and maybe then we can fit them together and reveal the exciting picture that God wants to show us, instead of being distracted by arguments over things that truly bear have no significance upon the subject being discussed.

Be blessed all

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Beloved Sister Zion

     What can I say except "beautifully said",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The Holy Spirit abides in each of us and can reveal to us a wealth of information that is worth more than the finest treasures in all the world,,,,,,,,,,,academics,logic,reason & intellect often can get in the way of True Wisdom,,,,,,,,,,,God Bless you!

                                                                                                   Much love,Kwik

Also,been thinking about what Teditis said & what I said,,,,,,I will change my definitive"No" to "perhaps" but still the same interpretation,,,,lol

[*Zion*]

Oooh... it's getting interesting already!  So if it is a fitting description, do you think these would be physical attributes as well as spiritual?

[RustyAngeL]

On 1/11/2016 at 0:53 PM, thereselittleflower said:

That's a poor translation in the KJV.

 

Most other versions say "worthless" "foolish"  or "idle"  instead of "idol"

New International Version
"Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!"

New Living Translation
"What sorrow awaits this worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! The sword will cut his arm and pierce his right eye. His arm will become useless, and his right eye completely blind."

English Standard Version
“Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!”

New American Standard Bible 
"Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."

King James Bible
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Woe to the worthless shepherd who deserts the flock! May a sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm wither away and his right eye go completely blind!" 

International Standard Version
"Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye. May his arm wither and his right eye be completely blind."

NET Bible
Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! May a sword fall on his arm and his right eye! May his arm wither completely away, and his right eye become completely blind!" 

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"How horrible it will be for the foolish shepherd who abandoned the sheep. A sword will strike his arm and his right eye. His arm will be completely withered. His right eye will be completely blind."

JPS Tanakh 1917
Woe to the worthless shepherd That leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, And upon his right eye; His arm shall be clean dried up, And his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

New American Standard 1977 
“Woe to the worthless shepherd 
            Who leaves the flock! 
            A sword will be on his arm 
            And on his right eye! 
            His arm will be totally withered, 
            And his right eye will be blind.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
Woe to the useless pastor that leaves the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm and upon his right eye; his arm shall be completely dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

King James 2000 Bible
Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaves the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be wholly dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

American King James Version
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaves the flock! the sword shall be on his arm, and on his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

American Standard Version
Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Douay-Rheims Bible
O shepherd, and idol, that forsaketh the flock: the sword upon his arm and upon his right eye: his arm shall quite wither away, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. 

Darby Bible Translation
Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye; his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye utterly darkened.

English Revised Version
Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaveth the flock, the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Webster's Bible Translation
Woe to the idle shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be wholly dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

World English Bible
Woe to the worthless shepherd who leaves the flock! The sword will be on his arm, and on his right eye. His arm will be completely withered, and his right eye will be totally blinded!"

Young's Literal Translation
Woe to the worthless shepherd, forsaking the flock, A sword is on his arm, and on his right eye, His arm is utterly dried up, And his right eye is very dim!'

 

I think you telling people what version of the Bible to use is just out of line.  You don't have the right to tell anyone what is the best version because it  could and will cause confusion and could be harmful to what might a new believer or someone who is struggling with their faith and wondering where to go.  God's word is just that God's word.  He will revel Himself through any version be KJ or Nkj or Amplified or whatever.  Leave it to the person which version they choose to use.  When they really seek God He will as I said  reveal Himself to this person.  He will never leave or forsake this person then their heart is for Jesus. 

[MorningGlory]

15 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Little Flower

      In no way ,shape or form was my post intended as a "dig" to you or anyone else,,,,,you do not know me very well but if you did then you would know I do not make "digs",passive aggressive remarks or insinuations of any kind or at any time,,,,,I get straight to the point & address whoever I am speaking to

    The fact is,you are not a teacher nor does this Ministry permit anyone to "teach" here,unless part of the Ministry Team(those recognized as qualified),,,,you are not permitted to teach here   This is not the first time you have posted in a way that sounds like "teaching"   Just because you are not a fan of the KJV you cannot tell people what you disagree with is a mis-translation plus your interpretation of the Scriptures is only that,,,,,,,,,,

Many people read these discussions,not just the people posting & we must be mindful of that ALWAYS,,,,,,,,"definitions" of words are indeed very helpful but clearly you have misunderstood what I was pointing out,,,,,,your post indicated that a "word" was being translated which is not going to help anyone because it is incorrect,,,,if you read other ones post perhaps you will understand how to use dictionarys & concordances properly when studying "transliterations"......as I tried to explain to you in my post,,,,,,,,you cannot always use the "word for word" method,it does not work in this case

Your explanation of a primary & a secondary meaning is not going to help anyone because it is inaccurate,,,,,,,,,,it is a Hebrew word that cannot translate & must be transliterated,,,,,,,,,,,(again,other one gave the proper definition,,,,,,nothing to add because it is quite clear)

I truly don't care whether you approve of the KJV or not,,,,,,,also,your assumption about what I think of the KJV has nothing to do with anything,,,,,,I do not need to defend Gods Word in any version,translation or text,,,,,,,,,,,if we "lean not on our own understanding"the Holy Spirit reveals to us Gods Truth in all,,,,,,, God Bless you,you needn't be defensive or combative,,,,,,I love you,Jesus loves you & may we all receive Gods Blessings of Wisdon & Understanding,,,,,                                                                                Love,in Christ,Kwik

 

Just my opinion here; posting cut and pasted material to explain an opinion is really NOT teaching.  Teaching would be explaining in one's own words what something means or doesn't mean or, as has happened recently, someone posting Scripture and then posting their interpretation of that Scripture right below it.

[Ezra]

15 hours ago, *Zion* said:

Oooh... it's getting interesting already!  So if it is a fitting description, do you think these would be physical attributes as well as spiritual?

"Idol" is the word used in the KJV, and it is not altogether inappropriate for "worthlessness".  Every idol is essentially worthless, but because the Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation (the ultimate idol), it is an allusion to the Antichrist as the "idol shepherd" trying to usurp the place of the Great Shepherd (verses 15-17):

Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexion states:

a. Zechariah 11:17 רֹעִי הָאֱלִיל the shepherd of worthlessness = the worthless shepherd, Job 13:4 רֹפְאֵי אֱלִל worthless physicians (""טֹפְלֵישֶֿׁקֶר), Jeremiah 14:14 Qr concrete a thing nought (uttered by prophets), but here קֶסֶם אֱלִיל a worthless divin. ("" חֲזוֺן שֶׁקֶר, תַּרְמִית לִבָּם) should perhaps be read (compare Gf).

b. especially plural אֱלִילִים concrete worthless gods, idols (compare הֲבָלִים) (possibly originally an independent word = gods, compare Sabean אלאלת, & see Nö^{SBAk 1882, p. 1191}, but even if so, associated by the prophets with idea of worthlessness, & used by them in iron. contrast with אֵלִים, אֱלֹהִים) Leviticus 19:4 (not to be made) Leviticus 26:1 (both H), Isaiah 2:8,18,20 (twice in verse) (of silver & gold), Isaiah 10:10 מַמְלְכוֺת הָאֱלִיל (collective) kingdoms ofidolatrous worthlessness, Isaiah 10:11; Isaiah 19:1,3(of Egypt) Isaiah 31:7 (twice in verse);Ezekiel 30:13 (Egypt), Habakkuk 2:18 אִלְּמִים׳א dumb idols, Psalm 96:5 ( = 1 Chronicles 16:26) all the gods of the nations are ׳א vain, worthless gods 1Chron 97:7.

[thereselittleflower]

32 minutes ago, Ezra said:

"Idol" is the word used in the KJV, and it is not altogether inappropriate for "worthlessness".  Every idol is essentially worthless, but because the Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation (the ultimate idol), it is an allusion to the Antichrist as the "idol shepherd" trying to usurp the place of the Great Shepherd (verses 15-17):

Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexion states:

a. Zechariah 11:17 רֹעִי הָאֱלִיל the shepherd of worthlessness = the worthless shepherd, Job 13:4 רֹפְאֵי אֱלִל worthless physicians (""טֹפְלֵישֶֿׁקֶר), Jeremiah 14:14 Qr concrete a thing nought (uttered by prophets), but here קֶסֶם אֱלִיל a worthless divin. ("" חֲזוֺן שֶׁקֶר, תַּרְמִית לִבָּם) should perhaps be read (compare Gf).

b. especially plural אֱלִילִים concrete worthless gods, idols (compare הֲבָלִים) (possibly originally an independent word = gods, compare Sabean אלאלת, & see Nö^{SBAk 1882, p. 1191}, but even if so, associated by the prophets with idea of worthlessness, & used by them in iron. contrast with אֵלִים, אֱלֹהִים) Leviticus 19:4 (not to be made) Leviticus 26:1 (both H), Isaiah 2:8,18,20 (twice in verse) (of silver & gold), Isaiah 10:10 מַמְלְכוֺת הָאֱלִיל (collective) kingdoms ofidolatrous worthlessness, Isaiah 10:11; Isaiah 19:1,3(of Egypt) Isaiah 31:7 (twice in verse);Ezekiel 30:13 (Egypt), Habakkuk 2:18 אִלְּמִים׳א dumb idols, Psalm 96:5 ( = 1 Chronicles 16:26) all the gods of the nations are ׳א vain, worthless gods 1Chron 97:7.

How the word was understood back then, and how it is understood today by the average reader is quite different -  I think that's just obvious on its face.   That's why more modern translations don't use it, they use words that convey the sense of the original language in words that are more easily understood today.