Who is The 7th Kingdom Beast (and 8th) of Rev?

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Salty said:

You just changed Scripture without authorization by those statements.

1. Jesus returns back to this earth, we don't go to Heaven. He gathers the "asleep" saints only from Heaven, and brings them with Him when He comes. For those of us still alive on earth when He comes, we are gathered to Him, and them, on the way to Jerusalem on earth. That is where Jesus and His elect priests and kings will reign from, at Jerusalem, on earth, for 1,000 years.

"The Problem"........What I notice about people who can't/don't get the rapture timing right, is they are off on everything else also, many times because of them not understanding when the Rapture is. 

 

1. You can not read Revelation 19 and state that point number one can be a fact, it can not be a fact, period. Now as per us going to meet Jesus just to return to earth, that is ludicrous.........1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, 

The only reason we have to put on immortality and rid ourselves of the SINFUL BODIES we have is because nothing touching Sin can enter Heaven, it is corrupt. Remember Jesus told Mary DON'T TOUCH ME for I have not yet ascended to the Father ? What do you think that meant ? He could not defile the offering he was taking back to Heaven by allowing a Human Sinner to TOUCH HIM !! 

 

Revelation is not in order, nowhere near in order.......Revelation 19 proves we Marry Jesus in Heaven, the come back with Jesus on White Horses, and guess who is still on earth !! The Anti-Christ, his Kings and Armies and all the wicked. Please explain how that happens without a Rapture, it CAN NOT HAPPEN without a Rapture. The Church is in Heaven for 7 Years just like the Bride and Bridegroom of a Jewish wedding is in the Bridal Chambers for 7 Days. The Bridegroom only comes when the father sends him in a traditional Jewish wedding, and he usually came around midnight, but in truth no one knew the time nor the day the father would choose to send him, he went forth and called the Bride with a SHOUT !! It all fits, Jesus said he told things in parables so only those people of me would understand, you have to go in depth to learn Jesus' parables, you have to study hard and pray a lot, you can not listen to men, that is the A-1 Problem of most Christians, they listen to other men's opinions instead of going to God. 

 

5 hours ago, Salty said:

2. Being thrown into the "lake of fire" means to perish. The beast and false prophet are thrown into it while never making it to the Great White Throne Judgment that only happens after the 1,000 years. They are thus judged and sentenced ... early.

No flesh man will be judged to 'perish' prior to the Great White Throne Judgment. There are many times of judgment per God's Word, but only one time of the Great White Throne Judgment to the perishing of one's soul, and it is set only for after Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

I have already explained this perfectly. They are men, the bible says they are men, and they are cast into Hell. Thus they are judged at the same time those beheaded are judged.

[Salty]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

"The Problem"........What I notice about people who can't/don't get the rapture timing right, is they are off on everything else also, many times because of them not understanding when the Rapture is.

That statement is an assumption without Scripture support, and thus irrelevant to the topic.

1. You can not read Revelation 19 and state that point number one can be a fact, it can not be a fact, period.

No.1 about Jesus returning back to this earth is... a Biblical fact. It is written in Acts 1 and in Zechariah 14. It matters not that you those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory don't care to address those Scripture proofs, yet regardless they establish His return to this earth as fact. Likewise with His promise to His elect in Rev.5:10 that they will reign "on the earth" with Him further reveals this as fact. Rev.4:20-21 is even more blatant proof.

 

Now as per us going to meet Jesus just to return to earth, that is ludicrous.........1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

Thinking you've got to go to Heaven is your error, not mine. When Jesus comes to gather His Church, He 'descends from heaven' down to this earth like the 1 Thess.4:16 declares. He's bringing the asleep saints with Him, and then gathers the alive saints, in the descent to earth. The Greek 'harpazo' ("caught up") simply means to be seized. It does not mean one must go to Heaven to be caught up. Apostle Philip was caught up and relocated to another area on the earth after he baptized the Ethiopian, he didn't have to go to heaven first to be relocated on earth.

 

The only reason we have to put on immortality and rid ourselves of the SINFUL BODIES we have is because nothing touching Sin can enter Heaven, it is corrupt. Remember Jesus told Mary DON'T TOUCH ME for I have not yet ascended to the Father ? What do you think that meant ? He could not defile the offering he was taking back to Heaven by allowing a Human Sinner to TOUCH HIM !!

Sorry, but you're rambling and have gotten off the subject. The change to our spiritual bodies on the last trump Paul taught is another matter.

 

[Revelation Man]

21 minutes ago, Salty said:

That statement is an assumption without Scripture support, and thus irrelevant to the topic.

 

 

We are discussing this in another thread that someone brought back..................

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Salty said:

Yes, that's right, only 4 kingdoms total before the final one of the feet of iron mixed with clay. Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome.

But Apostle John said five kings have fallen, and one is (meaning the 6th beast king was in John's day). Rev.17:8 & 11 is pointing directly to Satan for that is who ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. Even "son of perdition" is one of his titles Paul gave in 2 Thess.2:3-4. Would what Satan did against God when he originally rebelled and drew a third of the stars (angels) to the earth with him involve an original beast king slot? I say yes.

There's your five fallen kings, Satan originally when he first rebelled coveting God's Throne, and involving a beast kingdom of old that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns (did you miss that from Rev.12:3-4 which was describing back to the time of his original rebellion?), then Babylon, which was the very first mimic in our present world of a world kingdom in place of God's, and then Persia, then Greece, then Rome.

 

In no way is Rome the Iron Kingdom. The idea of Rome as the Iron Kingdom comes from a lack of real research into the Revelation in general and Rev 17 in particular. The problem with making Rome the Iron Kingdom is dating. In order for this to be true Rev must have been given in 68 AD so that the math works. Nero is the 6th, with 5 before him and then Galba as the 7th. Or maybe this is where the gap is inserted, between Nero and Galba. However, there are mounds of evidence that Rev was not given until the exile of John which has been dated to around 90 AD under Emperor Domitian. Now the math does not work. Scholars and historians from 100 AD to the present have dated John's receiving of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the 90's AD under the reign of Domitian while exiled to Patmos. I can pull up a few references but here's a pretty good one from Christian Courier:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

This would mean the entire doctrine of Nero as the Sixth, and the ridiculous idea of placing Assyria and Egypt before Babylon in the interpretation of the statue of Daniel 2 is nothing more than false.

Further, this means that, "...and there are 7 kings..." comes after the 90's AD and are therefore future and not past.

[Salty]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We are discussing this in another thread that someone brought back..................

Well, I haven't been part of that discussion.

[Salty]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation is not in order, nowhere near in order.......Revelation 19 proves we Marry Jesus in Heaven, the come back with Jesus on White Horses, and guess who is still on earth !! The Anti-Christ, his Kings and Armies and all the wicked. Please explain how that happens without a Rapture, it CAN NOT HAPPEN without a Rapture. The Church is in Heaven for 7 Years just like the Bride and Bridegroom of a Jewish wedding is in the Bridal Chambers for 7 Days. The Bridegroom only comes when the father sends him in a traditional Jewish wedding, and he usually came around midnight, but in truth no one knew the time nor the day the father would choose to send him, he went forth and called the Bride with a SHOUT !! It all fits, Jesus said he told things in parables so only those people of me would understand, you have to go in depth to learn Jesus' parables, you have to study hard and pray a lot, you can not listen to men, that is the A-1 Problem of most Christians, they listen to other men's opinions instead of going to God. 

 

I have already explained this perfectly. They are men, the bible says they are men, and they are cast into Hell. Thus they are judged at the same time those beheaded are judged.

The order in Revelation is not really the topic we've been discussing. 

Jesus did not use the Jewish wedding as an example of our gathering to Him. He actually used the idea of us being virgins who attend the marriage, like with the ten virgins parable in Matt.25. The wedding feast is about His return and marriage to Jerusalem:

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

And in Matthew 9:15, Jesus called us "children of the bridechamber".

Have you never read Ezekiel 16 where God gives a parable about His taking old Jerusalem when it was a pagan city called Jebus, and cleansed her, and married her, and then how she rebelled against Him in playing the harlot?

And have you never read Isaiah 54 where Paul was pulling from in 2 Cor.11 about wanting to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin"? The idea of Jerusalem in a bride sense is used there also.

Now as for your wonderings about how can the Church still be here on earth while the Antichrist and his host is, that's easy, because all one need do is read what our Lord Jesus taught on it in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and what Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 and in 2 Corinthians 11, and in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5. And then just heed what it says while not allowing men's doctrines to deceive you. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a doctrine of men that began in 1830's Great Britain by John Darby and the Brethren movement.

Here's a little lesson from our Lord Jesus on how... we can still be here on earth all up to the 7th Vial event:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

That in bold is our Lord Jesus still warning His Church on earth, and it's not just some 'tribulation saints' idea the Pre-trib Rapture doctors dreamed up. The reason I underlined His warning that He comes "as a thief" is because by that idea He tied this together with what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the "as a thief in the night" idea from the OT prophets.

1 Thess 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV

1 Thess 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

That "day of the Lord" event only happens at the very end of the tribulation. It is an event that actually will end this present world by burning man's works off the surface of this earth by God's consuming fire. Apostle Paul also described that event at the end of Hebrews 12. It is covered in many OT Scriptures of the prophets. And here by Peter, he makes it very plain that it means the day of the destruction of man's works off this earth, meaning ... no more tribulation nor antichrists. It is the event that will usher in Christ's reign, a literal physical reign on earth, not just a spiritual one.

 

[Salty]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

In no way is Rome the Iron Kingdom. The idea of Rome as the Iron Kingdom comes from a lack of real research into the Revelation in general and Rev 17 in particular. The problem with making Rome the Iron Kingdom is dating. In order for this to be true Rev must have been given in 68 AD so that the math works. Nero is the 6th, with 5 before him and then Galba as the 7th. Or maybe this is where the gap is inserted, between Nero and Galba. However, there are mounds of evidence that Rev was not given until the exile of John which has been dated to around 90 AD under Emperor Domitian. Now the math does not work. Scholars and historians from 100 AD to the present have dated John's receiving of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the 90's AD under the reign of Domitian while exiled to Patmos. I can pull up a few references but here's a pretty good one from Christian Courier:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

This would mean the entire doctrine of Nero as the Sixth, and the ridiculous idea of placing Assyria and Egypt before Babylon in the interpretation of the statue of Daniel 2 is nothing more than false.

Further, this means that, "...and there are 7 kings..." comes after the 90's AD and are therefore future and not past.

The actual 6th beast king entity John said was in his day was Domitian, a Roman emperor. The Roman empire as the legs of iron is unmistakable.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

Well, I haven't been part of that discussion.

That's the point, this thread is about the 7 headed beast, so I was invited to a thread that was brought back about the pre-trib and offering proof of it. It is under the Eschatology section.......Here you go. 

Pre-tribbers, what do you have 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/199937-pre-tribbers-what-do-you-have/

 

[Salty]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

That's the point, this thread is about the 7 headed beast, so I was invited to a thread that was brought back about the pre-trib and offering proof of it. It is under the Eschatology section.......Here you go. 

Pre-tribbers, what do you have 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/199937-pre-tribbers-what-do-you-have/

 

OK, I'll check it out.

[Last Daze]

50 minutes ago, Salty said:

Here's a little lesson from our Lord Jesus on how... we can still be here on earth all up to the 7th Vial event:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

 

Agreed.  v15 is either there randomly for no purpose other than randomness, or it is germane to the context.