pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Last Daze]

23 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is a poor hermeneutical approach to Scripture just because it is a last trumpet there are many last trumpets ... a trumpet is a common use to announce
events >and< to make them one and the same event ... well you should see the error of thought in this!

Oh, okay.  I get it.  If you don't have an answer, declare poor hermeneutics.  Let me add that to the list.

Essentially, what you're saying is that Paul didn't know what he was talking about.  He just made some meaningless, ambiguous statement about some last trumpet for no real reason.  Well, you should see the error of thought in that!

Paul refers to the last trumpet as the trumpet of God.  How many of those are there?  It's like you're not even trying.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

This is a poor hermeneutical approach to Scripture just because it is a last trumpet there are many last trumpets ... a trumpet is a common use to announce
events >and< to make them one and the same event ... well you should see the error of thought in this!

Because it is wrath from God upon the world of unbelievers... which God has not appointed me to endure such for
Christ bore that in Himself in the finished work upon the cross!  Love, Steven

we all know the the wrath is not for the believer, but you have not said how you are not subjected to the tribulation, ? you cannot escape the tribulation, Jesus said in matthew  24 , you will the believers , will have it and also persecution and death , for jesus name sake,  where will you be during that time ? prior to the wrath of God, ? let me know ,so if I get the, get out of tribulation ticket,  I would want one, also ? where does it say any where in the bible , ? that we are not going to have or we are not subjected to tribulation, ? for jesus has not redeemed us yet, and we are in satans world , he is the God of this world , Jesus even acknowledges that satan , is God of this world ?

[Esther4:14]

• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

The seventh trumpet will be the end.  But, prophecy is the same problem that I have understanding the parable of the sower (Matthew 13).  It is something very plain written in a way that is difficult to understand.  I bet that we all sound very much like the disciples would have sounded if they had tried to understand that parable without the interpretation.  

But, the point from this parable is that prophecy is simple in manifestation and it is difficult to understand this simplicity because it is supposed to be.  It has been hidden.  So, this is incomplete.  I am aware of this.  

Anyways,   

When Revelation 11:15-19 talks about the seventh trumpet, it says,

" The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

But, it won't be time for any of this according to the Revelation of John until chapter 20.  

Revelation 11:19 says that when the temple in the Heavens is opened at this point there will be flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake.  

 

Then, we are shown where 1 Thessalonians 5:2 more than likely came from in Revelation 16:5 Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Revelation 16:5

This is possibly because Paul knew the testimony of John according to 2 Corinthians 12:2, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows."

It is likely he had a greater understanding of the timing of the vision when he was parroting the revelation of John.  It is likely that more of what Paul had to say about the last days came from an understanding and awareness of this vision as well.  

 

Anyways, and after he says this in Revelation 16:5, the passage about flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake is repeated (Revelation 16:18).  

 

Then, the angel shows John how Babylon is fallen in chapters 17-19.  Finally we see the dead in Christ rise first to reign with Him for a thousand years, with those who are alive who did not take the mark of the beast (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; Revelation 20:4), and so forth till the New Jerusalem is revealed.  

 

Therefore, the final trumpet Paul refers to comes at the end, which is identified in two places according to the vision given to John, which was given to him the way it was for a reason.  The complexity of the Revelation is a test in and of itself of the faith and perseverance of the saints.  

[enoob57]

13 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

we all know the the wrath is not for the believer, but you have not said how you are not subjected to the tribulation, ? you cannot escape the tribulation, Jesus said in matthew  24 , you will the believers , will have it and also persecution and death , for jesus name sake,  where will you be during that time ? prior to the wrath of God, ? let me know ,so if I get the, get out of tribulation ticket,  I would want one, also ? where does it say any where in the bible , ? that we are not going to have or we are not subjected to tribulation, ? for jesus has not redeemed us yet, and we are in satans world , he is the God of this world , Jesus even acknowledges that satan , is God of this world ?

I have addressed this already with The Scriptures in contextual alignment with the wrath of God... if
you haven't read it then I suggest you do till then your blathering of your own points without regard to
dialogue!  love, Steven

[SINNERSAVED]

38 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I have addressed this already with The Scriptures in contextual alignment with the wrath of God... if
you haven't read it then I suggest you do till then your blathering of your own points without regard to
dialogue!  love, Steven

what is blathering ? and what are you really trying to say ?

is it that you have no answer ? or you put the tribulation and the wrath as one event ?

then you still have show how you have jesus talking tribulation to the believers, and how you say we don't have tribulation, ?

is the scripture wrong ? in matthew 24, ?

[Last Daze]

On 4/6/2016 at 9:17 AM, Last Daze said:

There is only one coming of Christ, and the resurrection / rapture happens then.  According to scripture, it takes place at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  Agreed?

Why tap dance yourself into a frenzy and go through these contortion exercises when the answer is plainly stated?

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thessalonians 4:16
• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Now, if you're serious about understanding the rapture and aren't content with just "at the last trumpet", what do you think the next step should be?  Make up stuff that people want to hear?  No.  You search to understand when the last trumpet, the trumpet of God is sounded.  Doesn't that sound like the next logical step, for someone who really  wants to know?  So tell me, according to scripture, when is the trumpet of God sounded, the last trumpet?  Please quote the OT scriptures Paul was referencing unless you think he was just making it up.

If you're not willing to chase down the "last trumpet, trumpet of God" lead, how serious can you be?  Paul specifically ties the resurrection / rapture to that event.  Start there.

Still waiting for your answer on this one Ezra.  Or do you think that Paul didn't know what he was talking about, that he just made up some ambiguous last trumpet thing because it sounded good?  What's he talking about?

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Essentially, what you're saying is that Paul didn't know what he was talking about.  He just made some meaningless, ambiguous statement about some last trumpet for no real reason.  Well, you should see the error of thought in that!

You know, the last trumpet, a last trumpet, one of the last trumpets - picky, picky, picky, what are you trying to say?

[Sister]

 1 Corinthians 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

When Paul said this, the book of Revelation was NOT OPENED YET.  It was not given to him to reveal to us how many trumpets there would be.  It was a mystery still for us.

Jesus opened the 7 seals, and revealed it to John who revealed to us that there would be 7 trumpets.

The book of Revelation is the "revealing", and ties all prophesies together new and old.  For the seals are now loosed.

We know from the book of Revelation that there are 7 trumpets, so the last trump is not maybe, but definitely the 7th TRUMP.

Now we know exactly what Trump Paul was speaking of, which he spoke in part.

It was not given to Paul to reveal this.  It was going to be Johns job, much later.  No dodging now.

 

[n2thelight]

On Wednesday, April 06, 2016 at 5:14 PM, MorningGlory said:

So the Lord is going to raise His elect to Him and then bring them back to earth at the Second Coming?  Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense.  And God is the father of logic.

The elect who have died as well as all others go to heaven at death,that's how He brings them back.Those alive will be changed to what those coming back already are.....

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You know, the last trumpet, a last trumpet, one of the last trumpets - picky, picky, picky, what are you trying to say?

Yeah, since it doesn't fit into the pretrib narrative, its importance needs to be minimized or its meaning obfuscated to keep the fallacy propped up.

A person sincerely interested in knowing the timing of the resurrection / rapture (at least in relation to other events) would seek to understand what Paul meant by stating specifically "at the last trumpet" which he specifically refers to as "the trumpet of God".  You don't refer to a generic, unknowable, imminent trumpet so specifically.  He knew which one he was talking about.