Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Omegaman 3.0]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

that is a common value assigned to us, but none of us, at least none that I know or have read are so naïve as to think they could not be wrong about this.  Evrery pre-tribber I know is ready no matter what happens.  They believe in a pre-trib rapture scenario, but they are also aware that they might have to through part or all of it and they are ready to give their life for the Lord, or at least as ready as they can be. 

I know that there are plenty of pre-trib believers, who understand that it is possible they could be wrong. I also know there are many, who think it is impossible, that God would allow suffering of His saints. The see that as incompatible with God character. I have never understood, how the the God who has allowed his servants to suffer in the past, necessarily has to be different in the future, but that is not the topic.

I suspect, that there will be, during the tribulation whether pre, mid, or post, those who will match the description of the seeds in the parable of the sower

“Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 “Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 “But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 “Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 “And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”

 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 “And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Personally, I think every one of those will be represented in the tribulation, I gather you would think that the one that fell on good soil, will be absent, with the except of the so called "tribulation saints"

I happen to be a perseverance of the saints kind of guy, so I suspect that any so-called Christians in the tribulation, who do fall away, are not the genuine article, but just tares, mostly those who have been deceived into thinking they were believers, but really were not.

However, here is what concerned me a little about pre-tribbers:

It is not just about being ready, as in being prepared for Christ's return. It is not just about being  physically prepared for the tribulation as in a survivalist kind of mentality. 

It is a concern, about being watchful! Do pre-tribbers look for signs, like the major one of the abomination of desolation, since they assume hey will be long departed, if not, why not, both Jesus and Paul said that was the primary sign to watch for. If that is the case, is there a reason to want to be informed about when, it is right at the door?

However, where I hold out hope for those who think they could not bear up in the worst of times, they have little idea what they will be able to do, when the Spirit of God enables them. Nothing shall be impossible, with a mustard seed of faith. we can do all things, through Christ, who strengthens us!

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I know that there are plenty of pre-trib believers, who understand that it is possible they could be wrong. I also know there are many, who think it is impossible, that God would allow suffering of His saints. The see that as incompatible with God character. I have never understood, how the the God who has allowed his servants to suffer in the past, necessarily has to be different in the future, but that is not the topic.

I suspect, that there will be, during the tribulation whether pre, mid, or post, those who will match the description of the seeds in the parable of the sower

“Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 “Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 “But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 “Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 “And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”

 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 “And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Personally, I think every one of those will be represented in the tribulation, I gather you would think that the one that fell on good soil, will be absent, with the except of the so called "tribulation saints"

I happen to be a perseverance of the saints kind of guy, so I suspect that any so-called Christians in the tribulation, who do fall away, are not the genuine article, but just tares, mostly those who have been deceived into thinking they were believers, but really were not.

However, here is what concerned me a little about pre-tribbers:

It is not just about being ready, as in being prepared for Christ's return. It is not just about being  physically prepared for the tribulation as in a survivalist kind of mentality. 

It is a concern, about being watchful! Do pre-tribbers look for signs, like the major one of the abomination of desolation, since they assume hey will be long departed, if not, why not, both Jesus and Paul said that was the primary sign to watch for. If that is the case, is there a reason to want to be informed about when, it is right at the door?

However, where I hold out hope for those who think they could not bear up in the worst of times, they have little idea what they will be able to do, when the Spirit of God enables them. Nothing shall be impossible, with a mustard seed of faith. we can do all things, through Christ, who strengthens us!

Time will tell.

[angels4u]

42 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

I believe in Once Saved Always Saved. I believe this from this verse. Romans 8:30. Our salvation is guaranteed.

Amen Bobeep!

[missmuffet]

If you take the Words of the Holy Bible literally for what it is intended you can not help but come up with a pretribulation understanding.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1. False. Rev. 6:17 nowhere states that the cosmic events are the Wrath.

"For the Great Day of His Wrath has come/came." Simple logic says that the cosmic events of verses 12-14 could have directly preceded the Wrath.

If verse 17 had preceded the description of the cosmic events, then you would have a case. But it does not precede it, it follows it: so as it stands, you are adding your belief into the Word -- eisegesis.

This is called playing semantic games. The entire passage from Rev 6:12-17 is about wrath (and connected to the wrath of the Great Tribulation), and culminates with what you just quoted.  So what I am doing is interpreting -- hermeneutics -- not eisegesis.

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

2. Again, you are adding your own unsupported presumption into the Word. Nothing therein says that "the culmination of the salvation of the Church" --the Rapture -- is not part of the cause of the universal mourning of the unbelievers.

Had you studied the significance of the Rapture, you would not have made such a comment. The perfection of the saints and the glorification of their bodies is indeed the culmination of salvation.  That is A CONCLUSION from the rest of Scripture, therefore "it does not say" has no relevance.  Please study the Rapture properly.  And because the Rapture is about JOY whereas the Second Coming is about MOURNING, there is absolutely no way that both these things happen at the same time.

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

3. Nothing in Matt. 24:15-31 speaks of "the believing Jewish remnant being brought to Israel." Once more you are adding to the Word.

Accusing people of "adding to the Word" is a very serious matter. Obviously you feel you have the liberty to interpret Scripture, but if others do so it is pejoratively labelled as "adding to the Word".  As a matter of fact there are numerous Scriptures (in the OT and NT) which speak of Christ gathering a believing Jewish remnant at His second coming.

When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, the Church had not even come into existence, let alone any teaching about the Rapture of the Church.  Christ was telling the apostles what would happen to the Temple, to Jerusalem, to Judea, and to Israel between His first and second comings, while foretelling worldwide events which correspond to the first five seals of Revelation. The Jewish apostles would understand "the elect" strictly in terms of Israel.  Furthermore, a close comparison with 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 makes it quite clear that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

If you take the Words of the Holy Bible literally for what it is intended you can not help but come up with a pretribulation understanding.

Which is also imminent.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13).

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I know that there are plenty of pre-trib believers, who understand that it is possible they could be wrong. I also know there are many, who think it is impossible, that God would allow suffering of His saints. The see that as incompatible with God character. I have never understood, how the the God who has allowed his servants to suffer in the past, necessarily has to be different in the future, but that is not the topic.

I suspect, that there will be, during the tribulation whether pre, mid, or post, those who will match the description of the seeds in the parable of the sower

“Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 “Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 “But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 “Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 “And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”

 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 “And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Personally, I think every one of those will be represented in the tribulation, I gather you would think that the one that fell on good soil, will be absent, with the except of the so called "tribulation saints"

I happen to be a perseverance of the saints kind of guy, so I suspect that any so-called Christians in the tribulation, who do fall away, are not the genuine article, but just tares, mostly those who have been deceived into thinking they were believers, but really were not.

However, here is what concerned me a little about pre-tribbers:

It is not just about being ready, as in being prepared for Christ's return. It is not just about being  physically prepared for the tribulation as in a survivalist kind of mentality. 

It is a concern, about being watchful! Do pre-tribbers look for signs, like the major one of the abomination of desolation, since they assume hey will be long departed, if not, why not, both Jesus and Paul said that was the primary sign to watch for. If that is the case, is there a reason to want to be informed about when, it is right at the door?

However, where I hold out hope for those who think they could not bear up in the worst of times, they have little idea what they will be able to do, when the Spirit of God enables them. Nothing shall be impossible, with a mustard seed of faith. we can do all things, through Christ, who strengthens us!

There will be some, I am sure, as well who will get discouraged if they find out they were wrong.   But I think they will be in the minority.    You mentioned survivalist mentality among pre-tribbers.   Not sure that has anything to do with being a pre-tribber.   I would think those think we are going to have to weather the anti-Christ would sooner seek to have some preparation given what living under AC rule will be like. 

 

[missmuffet]

43 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Which is also imminent.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13).

Exactly.

[missmuffet]

18 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There will be some, I am sure, as well who will get discouraged if they find out they were wrong.   But I think they will be in the minority.    You mentioned survivalist mentality among pre-tribbers.   Not sure that has anything to do with being a pre-tribber.   I would think those think we are going to have to weather the anti-Christ would sooner seek to have some preparation given what living under AC rule will be like. 

 

Yes, very small chance of surviving. But there will be a handful of believers who will make it to the end. How? I do not have a clue.

[Last Daze]

May God give the body of Christ discernment against deception and strength to endure to the end.