more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, angels4u said:

Omega, I can't find back where you said that God is not always fair?

I looked but couldn't find it back, was it maybe deleted?

More or less it's like this, do you also believe people are predestined for hell?

Perhaps you are referring to this post:

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/198007-more-indept-study-of-armenian-and-calvinist/?do=findComment&comment=2372821

Regarding people being predestined to Hell. That is known as double pre-destination. I do not see where the Bible ever says that God chooses people to go to Hell, or that they are predestined to go there. So no, that is not my position.

Some people think that if God chooses some to salvation, that this means He chooses the rest to Hell. I do not see it that way, and I do not see where that is logically a necessary conclusion. 

To use my prisoner analogy again:

If there are a number of men, who have commited crimes, and are going to go to prison. I as the governor, of the state, have the authority to choose from among that group, certain individuals to go free, I can pardon them. If I do so, that does not imply that I chose them to go to prison, they go to prison because of their crimes, and I did not make them commit those crimes. Those who committed those crimes, are destined to go to prison for their crimes, but not because of my decision as governor.

God gets the credit, for the salvation of those He chooses, but He does not deserve any blame, for the destiny of those who reaped destruction by being sinners.

[angels4u]

Enoob:

You asked:

T"he major flaw in Calvinism is making sin a creation of God and God in necessity using it to accomplish His Will... "

I found this article and it explains it very well:

Did God create sin?

 

by Matt Slick

No, God did not create sin. God is holy, and He would not create that which is contrary to His nature. Sinfulness is the opposite of holiness. It is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). God is the author of the Law which is a reflection of His holy character (Exodus 20). Therefore, God cannot create that which is in direct violation of the Law any more than a person can wish himself to be bigger than the sun. It just isn’t possible.

But, if God didn’t create sin, then where did it come from? This is a question that has been debated by theologians and philosophers for many years. I cannot say that I have any better answers than they. Nevertheless, let me venture a guess.

God created the conditions where free will creatures would be able to make a choice between obedience and disobedience to God. This condition existed when God created an angel called Lucifer, who was without sin, yet apparently had free will. Lucifer chose to rebel against God and sin (Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezek. 28:13-15). Likewise, Adam and Eve, having been made by God without sin, listened to the devil and chose to sin against God (Gen. 3).

But God did not cause them to sin (James 1:13). In the freedom of their wills, each decided to rebel against God, and sin entered the world (Rom. 5:12). God simply allowed the condition to exist where sin was possible.

An analogy can be found in the relationship between a parent and a child. A parent can create the condition that makes disobedience possible, yet the parent remains innocent if the child sins. For example, if a parent tells his child to clean up his room and the child does not, he has rebelled. But, the parent is not responsible for the child’s sin, nor did he cause the child to sin. The child had a choice to obey or not to obey.

Likewise, God has created the condition in the world where the ability to rebel against Him was possible. Yet, He is not responsible for that rebellion once it has been committed. Therefore, sin originated with Lucifer, who was the first to rebel, and entered the world through Adam who likewise chose disobedience.

https://carm.org/questions/about-god/did-god-create-sin

[Omegaman 3.0]

58 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

How many point Calvinism are you Omega?

58 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

 

Well, I will state again, for the record, that I really do not like the term  Calvinism or Calvinist, I think that almost implies that one agrees with everything Calvin ever said or did, and I do not. For the sake of the thread, and the love of labels that people have, I accept that terminology here, just to place myself in the general camp.

I see myself, as a person, who believes with a passion, what the Bible teaches. That makes me a Biblicist perhaps. If I had to take a personality based label, I guess I would say that I am a Paulist. I would say a Jesusist (if there is such a word), but Paul does such a fine job of unpacking the things of God, and giving us details and explanations, that I align myself with him.

However, you asked about which of the five points I agree with, I guess I would have to say all five. However, I ask that people do not assume too much from that.

Allow me to explain. If I say I am a 5 point Calvinist, then that might lead someone to think that I believe what they think the 5 points are, for example, let's take the "T" from T.U.L.I.P, Total Depravity.

A person might look at that and think:

"Well depravity is evil, and total mean complete. Therefore, total depravity means that all a man ever does, and can do is wickedness, he is as evil as is possible"

If the person then concluded, that because I am a 5 pointer, then that is my position on the evil nature of man, that would be a misconception. This is why I think it is better, to discuss each point as a separate topic topic, get a definition out there, and discuss the merits of that position, of at least a definition of it, and see whether or not, scripturally, a position holds up to Biblical scrutiny. I do not like being boxed in by other people's notion of a position, which I do not hold.

If we try to think of some person, who is/was evil, some would think of Hitler. I would agree that Hitler, was an evil man, but even he is not as evil as he could have been, not only evil continually. For example, perhaps he  got flowers for his mother once, just because he loved her, or maybe he chose to toss a puppy, a table scrap, rather that kicking it for begging for food.

I think everyone would probably agree, that no one is so completely evil, that they never ever did one good thing. The Bible says:

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (The context there, is before the flood judgement)

I think we would reasonable conclude, that these people we like my imaginary Hitler, they might occasionally have done some good thing, so to think that they only did evil, is likely misunderstanding what that verse is saying. How could such a people survive? A person does only evil to another person, and that person, also being evil, is going to return evil for evil, how long before they would kill each other off? I doubt they would make it to adulthood, and would therefore, never reproduce, and in one generation, they would all be gone.

So, on total depravity, I do not hold that mankind is as evil as is possible. For this reason, I do not enjoy calling myself a 5 point Calvinist, unless a person understands what I think the 5 points mean, and not be assigned to believing what they think the 5 points mean. We are already seeing people in this thread, trying to tell us what Calvinists think, and not always with the greatest of accuracy.

So, with those reservations and qualifiers, I would be a 5 pointer. I hope that I have made myself clear there.

That being said, there is no other kind of "Calvinist". One is a 5 point Calvinist, or one is not a Calvinist.

[Omegaman 3.0]

By the way, I think this is turning out to be a really fine thread (so far). No doubt, few, if any, will changer their minds, it is almost as though, they are predestined to believe what they believe, LOL.

However, if this thread continues to stay on course, and not go off track or become another slug-fest of Christians not exercising the fruit of the Spirit, then perhaps, this thread can be a resource, where at least people can gain a better undertanding, about what these issues are an mean for us.

These ideas have been debated for hundreds if not thousands of years, we will not settle it here, but if we can at least enhance out understanding, then something will have been accomplished.

I am sure that I do not need to state this (again), but what we believe about these things, does not determine what or eternal destiny is. It does not make us Christians or not, nor heretics or not. If anyone is tempted to call another a heretic, or pronunce them unsaved because of there beliefs, on these matters, I will eject them from the thread, I do not want to be a bully, nor lord power over anyone, but I am not going to tolerate having this thread degrade.

 

[angels4u]

2 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

By the way, I think this is turning out to be a really fine thread (so far). No doubt, few, if any, will changer their minds, it is almost as though, they are predestined to believe what they believe, LOL.

However, if this thread continues to stay on course, and not go off track or become another slug-fest of Christians not exercising the fruit of the Spirit, then perhaps, this thread can be a resource, where at least people can gain a better undertanding, about what these issues are an mean for us.

These ideas have been debated for hundreds if not thousands of years, we will not settle it here, but if we can at least enhance out understanding, then something will have been accomplished.

I am sure that I do not need to state this (again), but what we believe about these things, does not determine what or eternal destiny is. It does not make us Christians or not, nor heretics or not. If anyone is tempted to call another a heretic, or pronunce them unsaved because of there beliefs, on these matters, I will eject them from the thread, I do not want to be a bully, nor lord power over anyone, but I am not going to tolerate having this thread degrade.

 

 

it is almost as though, they are predestined to believe what they believe, LOL.

 

I agree

[missmuffet]

I tend to not have a view one way or the other. I like this statement from "Got Questions".

" Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense."

[hmbld]

29 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

By the way, I think this is turning out to be a really fine thread (so far). No doubt, few, if any, will changer their minds, it is almost as though, they are predestined to believe what they believe, LOL.

Mega, I want to discuss free will a little more, from your post this morning, I don't have time right now but will be back.  I have realized much of my position, is based off sermons I have heard, and only recently have been starting to realize some (maybe most) sermons are given as fact when they are only someones opinion, much as I probably do the same.  If you have scripture in mind to back up your position that God in His sovereignty chooses us, I would like to examine it more thoroughly.  If you don't get to it, its fine, I'll reread some of your posts and do a study myself.  

[St_Worm2]

9 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

I tend to not have a view one way or the other. I like this statement from "Got Questions".

" Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense."

Hi Bopeep, that's one of the reasons that I prefer a discussion (rather than an aggressive "debate") about all things Arminian/Calvinist. I am, in fact, part of the Evangelical Free Church of America now, which takes an agnostic position on these two understandings specifically because they believe that both can be substantiated by Scripture. Each member of the EFCA is free to believe as the Lord leads them to where the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism are concerned. In my local church, the pastorate (as well as the elder board) is divided about 50-50 right now, which makes for some lively discussion (as I'm sure you can imagine :)). 

Deuteronomy 29:29 tells us that even though there are "secret" things which only the Lord knows, He has revealed all that we 'need' to know. Still, considering the "secret" things, like this subject, or the Trinity, is not a bad thing for us to do (and I hope we will all continue to do so here as this is certainly an interesting thread ).

--David

[St_Worm2]

6 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Mega, I want to discuss free will a little more, from your post this morning, I don't have time right now but will be back.  I have realized much of my position, is based off sermons I have heard, and only recently have been starting to realize some (maybe most) sermons are given as fact when they are only someones opinion, much as I probably do the same.  If you have scripture in mind to back up your position that God in His sovereignty chooses us, I would like to examine it more thoroughly.  If you don't get to it, its fine, I'll reread some of your posts and do a study myself.  

Hi Hmbld, that is a GREAT subject to consider in this discussion   For instance, what do we mean when we say that our wills are "free"? How did the "Fall" affect our free will choices where God is concerned? (And what do verses like Romans 3:10-12 tell us about our "freedom" to choose in that regard?) And finally, why do we, in general, choose what we do?

Jonathan Edwards said that we always choose according to our greatest desire at the moment we make a decision (assuming that we are not under the influence of an external force that influences our decision making). He also said that in regards to God and salvation, humans continue to freely chose what they want most, but that we do not have the "liberty" that our progenitors did prior to their fall in the Garden.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That being said, there is no other kind of "Calvinist". One is a 5 point Calvinist, or one is not a Calvinist.

Yet some do call themselves 4-Point Calvinists.