Words of Jesus proves pre-Trib rapture is false

[Guest shiloh357]

28 minutes ago, Ezra said:

While it may seem unfair to us, God held the Jews of His time culpable for the crucifixion of Christ (termed as "murder"), and they themselves said "His blood be upon us, and upon our children".

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:22,23).

Here God tells the men of Israel through Peter that “ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain” Christ, which is direct culpability.

 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: (Acts 7:51,52).

Here God tells the people, the elders, the scribes, and the council (Sanhedrin) (see Acts 6:12) through Stephen that “ye have now been the betrayers and murderers” of the Just One.  So try as we might, we cannot escape the fact of the culpability of the Jews in the crucifixion of Christ. This is not anti-Semitism but Bible truth.

We seem to forget that the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and Judea by the Romans in 70 AD, as well as the dispersion of the Jews from Palestine, was a severe judgement against Israel for their treatment of Yeshua ha Mashiach.

I am not saying that God judging the Jews for their rejection of Jesus is unfair.    What I am saying is that it is unfair and unjust for us to single out the Jews as the ones who singularly deserve to be judged for that sin.   It is unfair that they alone should bear the label of "Christ rejecters." The whole world has rejected Jesus.   Why would God single out just the Jews to judge for that sin? 

I think it is also telling that while we condemn the Jews, it's the Jews that God hides in the desert in Revelation 12 and protects from the Beast. 

[missmuffet]

Isaiah 62:12; Romans 11:5

A future remnant will repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith.

[Esther4:14]

12 hours ago, tigger398 said:

Isn't it a punishment on the jews for rejecting Jesus.

I don't think that the tribulation is a punishment for Jews or towards Jews for rejecting Jesus.  What happens is that the nations will have to be accountable for what we have done, more than likely, individually and collectively.  

Individually:

Romans 14:12  "So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God."

and collectively:

" Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered."

Because as a nation, we can turn away and oppress other nations, which is what Israel was rebuked for often.  

" Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions, So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans. Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth?" (Isaiah 10:1-3).  

This type of thing becomes a collective sin because it usually takes more than one person to make something like this possible.  

So, what I believe is taking place in prophecy concerning the tribulation, will look something like the different messages Isaiah gave to the nations.  They all explained a different judgement for a different reason.  Many of the prophets would often dish out collective judgments to the surrounding nations because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34).  

Therefore, as we approach the fulfillment of these prophecies, we should be looking for how we can repent and become blameless in an individual way and in a collective way: or, as the prophecy puts it, we want to start discerning how to "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues," (Revelation 18:4).  This describes a sort of collective repentance.  

So, the tribulation will not be for the Jews for rejecting Christ; however, they could still be held accountable for this collectively when the prophecy is being fulfilled and judged as one of the nations rather than rather than esteemed as one who keeps the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17), which is a sort of humiliation in and of itself for the people who were called His people, to be judged with the nations who were not called His people.  

However, this is what the prophecies suggest because when we look at the prophecy of Ezekiel and Revelation for example, they are not describing two different prophecies for the Jews and the Gentiles.  They are describing the same prophecy for the Jew and the Gentile who believe in Christ, but because we are living in a time where there is a great desire to separate the two, which is primarily promoted by the Jewish community who continue to want to retain the same distinction they were given in a worldly sense as the nation of Israel.  We are building something more of a caste system within the church rather than the body of Christ and we are not hearing an integrative approach in the interpretation of prophecy because of the influence of the Jewish community.  They don't want the church to see themselves as being equal with the Jewish people, and people can argue that this is not happening; but it is happening, and the message is primarily from a Jewish influence, which is why the church needs to become even more discerning.   

So, we are hearing that this prophecy is for the Jew and that prophecy is for the Christian when we know there is no spiritual distinction between the two (Galatians 3:28), because the message of the Gospel was not for the Gentile, while the Jew would remained saved as a son of the covenant of Abraham.  Christ came to save the children of Abraham, so the prophecy is integrative and the rewards are intended to be given to the children of Abraham first and then the nations (Romans 1:16), and this is why the message of Christ proves pretribulation rapture to be false because the prophecy makes no distinction between the two.  The distinction is being manufactured and is what the scriptures refer to as the deception capable of deceiving the elect if it were possible (Matthew 24:24).    

So, the other nations will be held accountable in some form of collective way as well, and the only real escape from this judgement towards the nations is to seek Christ and His kingdom.  This is the only way for a Jew or Gentile to escape the wrath of God.  

For example, we are essentially involved in many things as Christians that we don't need to be, in my opinion.  We could collectively withdraw from and repent of things that would be acting in greater obedience to Christ in a collective way.  Like military endeavors, for example.  If David could beat Goliath, we should hypothetically be able to be neutral as a nation.  Switzerland remained neutral through both wars, which is a very interesting paradox to consider what we have the potential to do, if we could collectively have the faith to do it.  

 

 

[OakWood]

On 16/06/2016 at 7:17 PM, shiloh357 said:

No, we don't agree, not by a longshot and I think you know that.   The last 42 months of the Tribulation is where the majority of Revelation takes place.   It wrath of God seen in the bowls and the trumpets.   The Tribulation, the last 42 months of it take place after the peace covenant is broken.   That's when the wrath of God comes down.   Tribulation believers will be martyred at the hands of the anti-Christ at that time, while he is undergoing the wrath of God.  But those believers are they which are saved during the Tribulation, not before. They are those who did not take the mark.   They are not the Church. The Church has been taken out before the Tribulation begins.   These people rejected the Gospel, but now are receiving Christ, but at risk of their own lives.

God allows the anti-Christ to operate in the first 42 months, but in the last 42 months, proves his wrath is far superior and pours it out upon the earth.  

So you don't agree that believers are not exempt from the wrath of God despite the fact Noah was rescued from the wrath of God?

Look it's really simple.

The Tribulation is not God's wrath because God does not punish the righteous and the righteous are clearly being punished during the Tribulation. The antiChrist is the one  punishing them.

The wrath of God comes later in the Tribulation or at the end of it - the exact time is irrelevant to my point. This is where God punishes people.

The Church will NOT be rescued from the Tribulation. Christians are there during the Tribulation and are being persecuted. However when God steps in and carries out his own wrath, then believers are rescued (ie raptured) so that they will not be caught in the cross-fire, in the same way that Noah was rescued so that he wouldn't drown too.

TRIBULATION = PERSECUTION BY EVIL

WRATH = JUDGEMENT OF GOD

The Tribulation starts first and then at some point later the Wrath starts. Believers are there during the Tribulation but are rescued before the wrath starts.

Jesus promised us that we will be raptured before the wrath starts, but he did not say that we will escape the Tribulation before that. In fact he tells us that we will be persecuted and killed for his sake. Any surviving believers who have endured this Tribulation will be rescued when Jesus returns to carry out his judgement. In fact as he returns we will be lifted into the air to meet him. He's not going to come before the Tribulation starts (just to rescue us) and then come back again to carry out judgement. This would involve two comings which is simply not scriptural.

We are nothing special and compared to earlier Christians who were far better than us and far more deserving and who actually suffered for their faith, we don't have a special get-out clause.

The pre-Trib rapture is false and based purely upon wishful thinking and arrogance that we are more deserving of rescue from evil than all the Christians who came before us. We will suffer the Tribulation, we will be persecuted, and some of us may die. But anybody who survives this will be rescued when the Lord returns to act vengeance upon our persecutors. Those who don't survive it will be martyrs for their faith and be rewarded greatly.

It's not difficult to understand and it's exactly what scripture says.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I think it is also telling that while we condemn the Jews, it's the Jews that God hides in the desert in Revelation 12 and protects from the Beast. 

Agreed. It is not for Christians to sit in judgement over Jews who rejected Christ (although that was the case for centuries, and may still be the case among some Christians).  Actually, Christians are to reach out to them with the Gospel, regardless.

God has already judged Israel, and will bring more judgements during "the time of Jacob's trouble".  In the meantime God blesses the Jews even though they have rejected Christ.  They prosper despite adversities and hatred against them.

But in spite of their rebellion and rejection, God still has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel.  In Revelation 12 we see the believing remnant of Israel protected in the wilderness. In Revelation 14 we see a microcosm of redeemed Israel by tribes in the 144,000 before the throne of God.  Once again, all of this displays the infinite grace of God, and His immutable covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[PlasmaHam]

I have literally used the exact same verses that guy in the video did, to support a pre-trib argument. And it made a lot more sense than his did, the guy I was debating, who is studying to be a theologian, didn't even counter those claims, just did a walk around of those verses.

 

 The Tribulation is God's wrath, I see no arguing about it. God sends the horsemen, God has the angels blow the trumpets, God basically overrules the whole event. Satan is just a pawn in God's master plan.

  God actually protects Jews during the Tribulation so I am not sure why Jews are suddenly being singled out   

[FresnoJoe]

What's

"I will leave and go back to my place until they admit their offense and seek my face. When affliction comes to them, they will eagerly seek me." Hosea 5:15 (International Standard Version)

It All About

“Behold, I am going to deal at that time With all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast, And I will turn their shame into praise and renown In all the earth. Zephaniah 3:19 (New American Standard 1977)
 

[Steve_S]

After a discussion and apologies being exchanged, we have decided to allow rick back into the topic.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

So you don't agree that believers are not exempt from the wrath of God despite the fact Noah was rescued from the wrath of God?

Look it's really simple.

The Tribulation is not God's wrath because God does not punish the righteous and the righteous are clearly being punished during the Tribulation. The antiChrist is the one  punishing them.

The wrath of God comes later in the Tribulation or at the end of it - the exact time is irrelevant to my point. This is where God punishes people.

The Church will NOT be rescued from the Tribulation. Christians are there during the Tribulation and are being persecuted. However when God steps in and carries out his own wrath, then believers are rescued (ie raptured) so that they will not be caught in the cross-fire, in the same way that Noah was rescued so that he wouldn't drown too.

TRIBULATION = PERSECUTION BY EVIL

WRATH = JUDGEMENT OF GOD

The Tribulation starts first and then at some point later the Wrath starts. Believers are there during the Tribulation but are rescued before the wrath starts.

Jesus promised us that we will be raptured before the wrath starts, but he did not say that we will escape the Tribulation before that. In fact he tells us that we will be persecuted and killed for his sake. Any surviving believers who have endured this Tribulation will be rescued when Jesus returns to carry out his judgement. In fact as he returns we will be lifted into the air to meet him. He's not going to come before the Tribulation starts (just to rescue us) and then come back again to carry out judgement. This would involve two comings which is simply not scriptural.

We are nothing special and compared to earlier Christians who were far better than us and far more deserving and who actually suffered for their faith, we don't have a special get-out clause.

The pre-Trib rapture is false and based purely upon wishful thinking and arrogance that we are more deserving of rescue from evil than all the Christians who came before us. We will suffer the Tribulation, we will be persecuted, and some of us may die. But anybody who survives this will be rescued when the Lord returns to act vengeance upon our persecutors. Those who don't survive it will be martyrs for their faith and be rewarded greatly.

It's not difficult to understand and it's exactly what scripture says.

Sounds like you are less post trib (as you recently clamed you are) and more like a mid tribber.   Also, I disagree with how you artificially divide the 7-year tribulation period into Tribulation/Wrath.   The Bible doesn't make that division.   In Revelation 7, the martyrs who die at the hand of the anti-Christ during the time when the wrath of God is poured out are said to have gone through "great tribulation."   The persecution of the tribulation saints by the AC goes well into the last 42 months.

[OakWood]

11 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Sounds like you are less post trib (as you recently clamed you are) and more like a mid tribber.   Also, I disagree with how you artificially divide the 7-year tribulation period into Tribulation/Wrath.   The Bible doesn't make that division.   In Revelation 7, the martyrs who die at the hand of the anti-Christ during the time when the wrath of God is poured out are said to have gone through "great tribulation."   The persecution of the tribulation saints by the AC goes well into the last 42 months.

Post-trib, mid-Trib, 3/4 Trib.... what does it matter?

The Trib will start and then:- Christians will suffer, Christians will endure, Christians will experience pain, loss, grief etc..... Nobody will be raptured before it starts. Nobody is special. Christians have been persecuted for centuries. Nero threw Christians to the lions. ISIS kills Christians every day. There will be no rapture before the Trib. We are to face the Trib - live through the Trib, or die during the Trib. We will not be lifted to safety by God before this starts!

Only when God decides to redeem his people and punish the wicked will we be lifted to safety, and that is when Jesus returns - not before. And Jesus will not return before the Trib begins to lift us all to safety. He returns only once.

We are the tribulation saints. We are not a special case. Christians died for their faith before we were born and Christians will die for their faith up until the Tribulation and during the Tribulation. There is no special generation of Christians that are exempt from this and we are not exempt. Don't wait around expecting a rapture to occur because it's not going to happen before the Tribulation.

If you live long enough you will be around to see the antiChrist come to power, you will see his reign begin and you will see him perform miracles but you will not be deceived by him because you have read the script and you know the story. You will experience his tyranny and you will live on this Earth when the persecution starts and you may even experience his persecution yourself. You may even be martyred and beheaded for your faith. But if you survive all this, you will see Christ return, and as he returns you will be lifted up (raptured) to be with him, and while you are safe in his arms and safely away from this Earth, he will pass judgement on the inhabitants and non-believers who are left here.

There is no pre-Trib rapture. Neither you nor I deserve to escape the Trib (unless you're lucky enough to die before it happens). But we are saved, and that is the good news.