Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Guest]

 

The Power

 

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:5

 

Of The Faith

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

[wingnut-]

 

The Power

 

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:5

 

Of The Faith

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

Amen.

[wingnut-]

 

As long as you separate the Church being Raptured (which I view as taking place before the tribulation begins) and the rapture of the Two Witnesses (which I see taking place at the mid-point of the Tribulation). But yes, in that order.

God bless.

 

 

Hello again Ranger and Merry Christmas,

 

Thanks for the clarification on how you see things, as I understand you see 4 resurrections, in the order I had them.  Where I only see 2.  I suppose that is the best place to start.  The obvious question is, why does John write this is the first resurrection?

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

 

Verse 5 should state third resurrection according to what you present.  Verse 4 is critical as well, John describes two different groups:  those with authority to judge, and people from the great tribulation.  There is no question who the second group is, so who is the first group?

 

This comes from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

 

I Corinthians 6:³ Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

 

It appears to me that both the church from Corinth and believers in the end are resurrected together.  Paul is writing to the church here, and I understand the context of the passage.  The point is, it was written.  Those would be my first two problems with this.

 

Another problem I have is this, we see the two witnesses resurrected in Rev. 11:12, yet John says the first resurrection takes place much later.  And I also do not see the other resurrection you mentioned (Number 1 from the earlier list) anywhere in Revelation.  The church is there in the beginning, exactly what point do they leave?  This is what I see.

 

Beginning with the church in Ephesus:

 

Revelation 2:⁴ Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. ⁵ Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

 

He says this to the church in Smyrna:

 

Revelation 2:¹⁰ Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. ¹¹ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

 

He says this to the church in Pergamum:

 

Revelation 2:¹⁶ Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

He says this to the church in Thyatira:

 

Revelation 2:²⁴ Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, ²⁵ except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

²⁶ To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

 

He says this to the church in Sardis:

 

Revelation 3:³ Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

He says this to the church in Philadelphia:

 

¹⁰ Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. ¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

He says this to the church in Laodicea:

 

Revelation 3:¹⁹ Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. ²⁰ Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

²¹ To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. ²² Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

 

Only one of these churches seems to be going anywhere, and that is the church in Philadelphia.  They are told because of their patient endurance they will be kept from a specific hour.  The phrase patient endurance shows up with regularity following the anti-christ rising from the fatal head wound, it is in relation to saints.  This hour is significant, as it comes up repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation, and Jesus Himself made mention of a very specific day and hour.  It was in response to very specific questions asked of Him privately by the disciples.

 

Matthew 24:³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

What follows this is His response, all the way up to chapter 26 of Matthew.  This is the most accurate, chronological telling of these events, they come from Jesus, and He answers their questions in the order they were asked.

 

1. The sign of His coming.

 

Matthew 24:²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

    and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

³² “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ³³ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

 

The red letters above are specific signs we are given by Jesus in regards to His coming.  So what is the purpose of a sign?  To point one in a direction.  For starters, this is after "the abomination that causes desolation".  But let's see where these signs appear in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 6:¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

Continuing on in Matthew, Jesus follows the above signs with this.

 

Matthew 24:³⁶ “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

A very specific day and hour is to follow what He has already told us will take place.  Then He speaks about how it was before the great flood, which to me is speaking to the fact that people paid no heed to the signs and events.  In Noah's time they laughed at him, as I understand it, they were not too concerned until the water started to rise.  I don't see any reason why in the end time that people would react any differently, they are downright defiant according to John.

 

Matthew 24:  That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

This to me is the clearest depiction of "the rapture" in all of scripture, and the sign Jesus attaches to it is "the thief."  And where do we find that in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 16:¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Verse 15 holds the symbol, the very sign Jesus gives us Himself in His depiction of "the rapture."    This is the 6th bowl, the previous sign was following the 6th seal, and we see this in the 6th trumpet.

 

Revelation 9:¹² The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

¹³ The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. ¹⁴ It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

 

Here we see the Euphrates coming up again, and the mention of a very specific day and hour, with emphasis.  6th trumpet, 6th seal, 6th bowl.  Note that the first woe occurred following the 5th trumpet.  We see the "three woes" attached to the last three trumpets in this passage at the conclusion of the 4th trumpet below.

 

Revelation 8:¹³ As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

 

This is probably too long already, so I am going to continue in another post.

[wingnut-]

Continued from post #304.....

 

We see the second woe pass here.

 

Revelation 11:¹¹ But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. ¹² Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

This is the passage where we see the two witnesses resurrected.  This coincides with the 6th trumpet as previously shown.  Again we see this very specific hour mentioned.  Each resurrection mentioned in Revelation all point to the same place, precisely where John says the first resurrection occurs.  Just prior to the millenium, at the conclusion of the 6th day of Daniel's seventieth week/ the beginning of the 7th day, or the last day.

 

And what happened on the 6th day in the beginning?

 

Genesis 1:²⁵ God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

 

Genesis 1:²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

Genesis 1:³⁰ And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

³¹ God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

The breath of life in the beginning, and we saw the breath of life for the end with the resurrection of the two witnesses above, eternal life.  Also take note of the command they were given, "Come up here."  Isn't that what we are expecting to hear as well?

 

I believe the specific day and hour refer to the last day, and an hour within that day.  I believe that day is the millenium.  What all of this tells me is that Jesus will come like a thief at the very beginning of the final day, Satan is bound at the same time, he is released for this final hour within that day.  This would include the Fall of Babylon, which chapter 18 tells us happens in a specific hour of a specific day.  This would also include the battle of Armageddon, where we see the enemy gather immediately following the Lord's announcement that He comes like a thief.

 

The final woe is attached to the 7th trumpet as we've seen, which is also the last trumpet to be sounded, and we see these things associated with it.

 

Revelation 10:⁵ Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. ⁶ And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! ⁷ But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

 

I Corinthians 15:⁵⁰ I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ⁵¹ Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— ⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

All of these things tie together, and they all point to the same place at the same time.  These 6th and 7th judgements are happening rapidly, just as we were told they would by Isaiah, whom Paul pointed us to in Romans below.

 

Romans 9:²⁷ Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
²⁸ For the Lord will carry out
    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

 

God is not cruel, following the resurrection where John places it, and in alignment with all the signs given, we see this following the 6th trumpet, which indicates this is the result of the second woe.

 

Revelation 9:

²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

There are only those opposed to God left for this final day, the Day of the Lord, when He will rule all the nations with an "iron scepter."  Why the iron scepter?  To finish the battle for good.  That is precisely what we see happen on that last day.  We are following Him as He finishes off sin, this is our reign on this earth.  All of His children are following Him as this happens, and at the conclusion of the day those who died outside His grace will be resurrected and judged.

 

Matthew chapter 24 wraps up where we have weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Chapter 25 consists of the three parables which indicate three different types of judgements.  This wraps up the answer to the disciple's second question to Jesus, as to where the age ended.  That is twice that Jesus specifically tells us the end of the age occurs after the Great White Throne judgement, as illustrated in the final verse of the chapter.

 

Matthew 25:⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

In chapter 15 of I Corinthians, we see Paul break down the resurrection, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus, then the resurrection of the dead, and then the resurrection body itself.  When he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, he writes this.

 

I Corinthians 15:²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For he “has put everything under his feet.”

 

Scripture establishes a clear order for the resurrection of the dead, right here.  It begins with Jesus, then the firstfruits, and then when he comes, those who belong to Him.  And who belongs to Him?  His sheep.  This is the order we will be resurrected in, this is also confirmed by Paul several more times in the book of Romans.

 

Romans 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

 

Romans 2:⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

 

In short, to convince me that this is all coincidence is a monumental task in itself, but that will be easy compared to convincing me that Jesus gave us bad directions.  The signs He gave us are clear, what He attaches them to are clear as well.  The sign of the thief is attached to the most vivid portrayal of the rapture in all of scripture, there is no doubt that is what He is referring to.  Paul and John each invoke this sign into their writings.

 

I will close this post with what I see as the most beautiful depiction of the rapture from Revelation.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁴ I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

We see Jesus right where we are told we will meet Him, on a cloud, waiting for God the Father to say it is time.  In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Him, and on our way to finish the job.

 

Revelation 22:²⁰ He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

²¹ The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

[S.T. Ranger]

As long as you separate the Church being Raptured (which I view as taking place before the tribulation begins) and the rapture of the Two Witnesses (which I see taking place at the mid-point of the Tribulation). But yes, in that order.

God bless.

Hello again Ranger and Merry Christmas,

Thanks for the clarification on how you see things, as I understand you see 4 resurrections, in the order I had them. Where I only see 2. I suppose that is the best place to start. The obvious question is, why does John write this is the first resurrection?

Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Merry Christmas, my friend, hope yours was a joyful one, and thanks for the response.

The first question to ask is how can this be the first resurrection (in sequence) when the Two Witnesses are not only resurrected in ch.11 but raptured? We know that this takes place during the Second Woe, which preceded not only the Seventh Trumpet (Third Woe) but all 7 of the Vial Judgments. Many have tried to make the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments the same judgments based on similarities, however, when we compare these judgments we are forced to abandon that view when we acknowledge the dissimilarities between them which demand that they are different judgments. If that is not enough (the differences), then we also factor in that after their resurrection and Rapture...the Tribulation is still going on. Their ministry spans forty two months, as does the reign of terror of the Beast. When we see them raptured, we are then told of events which demand...another 3 1/2 years.

Because many have been told "Revelation is not sequential" based on the parenthetical elements in Revelation, they feel they have liberty to place the events of those parenthetical portions...wherever they choose. Not only does this disrupt the flow of the timeline carefully given us by John, it brings about dilemmas that need to be reconciled. One such dilemma is "How can the Beast's reign of terror run concurrent with the ministry of the Two Witnesses? If no man has power over them, then we must conclude that their death takes place at the end of the Tribulation. We know the casting of Antichrist is at the end, so how is it that, if this is true...we still have the events described in the parenthetical and the remaining judgments? This would demand that the remainder of the judgments all happen basically on the last day of the Tribulation, which we would never suggest.

The order of events is chronological in Revelation, and when we create our timeline we have nothing to reconcile: the Tribulation begins with the Seal judgments which are a time of wars and rumors of wars, pestilence, famine and death. The Two Witnesses minister forty two months, the span of the first half, and are killed in the middle, at which time the Temple comes under Antichrist's control, affording him opportunity to make it, and the Covenant of Law...desolate. This is the time he is empowered for forty two months, and declares himself god. Israel flees and is provided shelter in the wilderness. Antichrist is described as emerging with wrath, because he knows his time is short, not over.

To tell someone that Revelation is not chronological is the absolute worst advice someone can give someone else in regards to understanding Revelation. I would just suggest that in your future studies, you at least consider this, and see if it does not resolve a few issues, also making a few issues disappear.

To finish up the first point, consider the death, resurrection, and rapture of the Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Again, it is finished before the Third Woe begins.

And the question to ask yourself is this: can we deny this is a resurrection? Can we deny this is a rapture? They are physically dead, their life is restored, and they are called up to Heaven. That doesn't sound similar to Paul's description of the Rapture...it is identical.

The second thing to remember in regards to the First Resurrection, which is equally important, is...what does it mean when it is called the first resurrection?

I would suggest to you that it is a reference to the type of resurrection the Tribulation Martyrs receive, not the timing.

The word "first" can be seen not to represent sequential order, and we see this in the following verses:

Matthew 20:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 6:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;

Mark 12:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Luke 19:47

King James Version (KJV)

47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,

Now we have prōtos used in these verses as well, giving an eminent, rather than a sequential meaning in it's use.

Consider that and consider what that means when we read...

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

That this cannot possibly be the first resurrection in regards to sequence according to the resurrection which the Body of Christ will receive should be fairly obvious to us...because the First Resurrection unto glorification is none other than the Resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Right?

Not only that, but we would have to deny the Two Witnesses are either not resurrected or raptured or...their rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation and takes place at the resurrection described in ch.20. This would fit in regards to who is raised at that time, because only Tribulation Martyrs are said to be raised, but that only leads to the dilemma of what do we do with the fact that only Tribulation Martyrs are said to be raised and we are specifically told that there is a thousand year reign of Christ between their resurrection and the resurrection of the dead?

Then, if that isn't enough, if the First Resurrection is the Rapture...who populates the Millennial Kingdom?

And because some bad advice has been given and received, historically, these dilemmas brought about the a-millennial view, because the only way to remove these unanswerable dilemmas is to remove the thousand year reign of Christ specifically mentioned there and making there be only one general resurrection at the end of the days. When all that needs to be done is accurately identify the meaning of the word "first" and keep the order of events...

...exactly as they were given to us. God did not give us revelation in a manner that cannot be understood, for then it would not be revelation from God, but oracles meant to be confusing, such as the babblings of the Oracle of Delphi. But God not only gave us this revelation to be understood, but has built in blessing for seeking that understanding:

Revelation 1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Three verses in and we already know that understanding is possible, which is true of every revelation God has provided men. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not given shrouded in mystery, as the Gospel of Christ and the teaching of the Rapture was in the Old Testament, but understanding is both possible and expected, and I can testify that understanding is a blessing which comforts the soul in regards to end-time events, even as our beloved brother Paul wrote of to the Thessalonians.

So let's look at your objection again:

Thanks for the clarification on how you see things, as I understand you see 4 resurrections, in the order I had them. Where I only see 2. I suppose that is the best place to start. The obvious question is, why does John write this is the first resurrection?

Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

In Revelation, the First Resurrection is actually the second that is clearly given to us in the Book, however, if we place a sequential order of events in regards to resurrection in the glorified body spoken of by Paul they would be listed thus:

1. Christ...the first-fruits and Firstborn of the dead;

2. The Church;

3. The Two witnesses;

4. The Tribulation Martyrs.

...and 5. would be the resurrection which takes place after the thousand years are ended, which could be debated as only pertaining to the "dead," or, those that do not have the life of Christ, or, have not been born again. I lean heavily towards the fact that at this time the believing dead will be raised with those called out of Sheol/Hades, hence the division of those who are or are not in the Book of Life.

The final comments I would make in regards to the first resurrection and this being descriptive of type rather than a having a sequential meaning would be first, we see resurrections under the Old Testament Economies, such as the child raised during Elijah's ministry and Lazarus, as well as resurrections under the New Covenant Economy such as Dorcas (Acts 9:37-42) and our poor sleepy student Eutychus (Acts 20:9-11) which could be debated as to whether he was dead or not, I take the view he was. All of these we view as physical bodily resurrection because we know that Christ is the first to be raised again in glorified form, but, they are resurrections, which would be, in meaning of sequence, before the First Resurrection. So we know when we limit resurrection in glorified form at the very least we can say Christ's is the first.

Secondly, and lastly, to address further that the First Resurrection speaks of type, how do we do that? Simply by noting that in Scripture there are only Two Resurrections ever taught, both in the Old Testament, as well as the New.

Consider:

Daniel 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, as well as the resurrection of the Church and the Two Witnesses...are the First Resurrection, the resurrection unto life.

The argument that the First Resurrection is the "first" resurrection (in sequence) is an untenable view. But, that it is the First Resurrection is inarguable. The problems that arise from making this the first in the sequence of resurrection unto life in the glorified body begins first in the Tomb, where the First Resurrection of Christ took place. That, in sequence, is inarguably the first resurrection, leaving us to understand Revelation 20 differently. And when we do, we see that a number of dilemmas that arise for the Post-Tribulation view are no longer relevant.

Continued...

Edited December 26, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[Guest]

 

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:23-24

[S.T. Ranger]

Verse 5 should state third resurrection according to what you present.

Verse 5 would have to be, I dunno, the Tenth Resurrection according to what you present.

It is actually, in sequence of time, the fourth resurrection we are told about in regards to glorification: Christ, the Church, the Two Witnesses, and then the Tribulation Martyrs. But all of these are the First Resurrection, the resurrection unto life.

 

Verse 4 is critical as well, John describes two different groups: those with authority to judge, and people from the great tribulation. There is no question who the second group is, so who is the first group?

This comes from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

I Corinthians 6:³ Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

It appears to me that both the church from Corinth and believers in the end are resurrected together.

Consider that at this time...John is seeing them showing them enthroned...before the First Resurrection of Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This first group I view as those that have at this time received positions of rule. The thrones are filled before the Tribulation Martyrs are raised, and again we see the value of keeping the actual sequence of events in Revelation. THis limits quite a bit of confusion.

 

Paul is writing to the church here, and I understand the context of the passage. The point is, it was written. Those would be my first two problems with this.

Are they still problems?

 

Another problem I have is this, we see the two witnesses resurrected in Rev. 11:12, yet John says the first resurrection takes place much later.

That would be your problem only, it raises no dilemma for my doctrinal view.

This resurrection alone, not to mention that of Christ...makes a sequential meaning to first untenable. You would have to deny it is a resurrection and rapture in the case of the Witnesses in order to make a sequential understanding tenable.

 

And I also do not see the other resurrection you mentioned (Number 1 from the earlier list) anywhere in Revelation.

Nor do you see the Church mentioned except with Christ.

But consider what is written before the Tribulation events begin:

Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Heaven is opened and John is caught up.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

These, I believe, are the same thrones John sees here:

Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The point is...these are already in Heaven.

 

The church is there in the beginning, exactly what point do they leave?

Prior to the Tribulation, of course.

What we cannot debate is whether they are already in Heaven or not. That is clear in both texts (from Revelation). While we might not see Revelation 4 giving us a veiled reference to the Rapture, we do see John caught up (like we see the Two Witnesses caught up, and just as Paul describes the Rapture of the Church) into Heaven and being immediately in the spirit. We could describe this as a vision only but it is just my view John was actually caught up and saw events in real time. God can do that.

 

This is what I see.

Beginning with the church in Ephesus:

Revelation 2:⁴ Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. ⁵ Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

He says this to the church in Smyrna:

Revelation 2:¹⁰ Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. ¹¹ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

He says this to the church in Pergamum:

Revelation 2:¹⁶ Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

He says this to the church in Thyatira:

Revelation 2:²⁴ Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, ²⁵ except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

²⁶ To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

He says this to the church in Sardis:

Revelation 3:³ Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

He says this to the church in Philadelphia:

¹⁰ Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. ¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

He says this to the church in Laodicea:

Revelation 3:¹⁹ Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. ²⁰ Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

²¹ To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. ²² Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Only one of these churches seems to be going anywhere, and that is the church in Philadelphia.

Not entirely accurate: everyone from each of these Churches who overcomes will be caught up. The point in each Epistle is for them to overcome, and John, the same writer, tells us how one overcomes:

1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

One overcomes because Christ has overcome, and because of that we are born of God in salvation which takes place in our lifetimes.

Secondly, we must keep these Epistles in their context, which is not one which describes "periods of the Church Age," but are Epistles written to existing Churches, of whom there were members who needed to be...saved. Those born of God, for example, are not spewed out of the Lord's mouth, but are kept by the power of God and are in His hand, from which no man can remove us.

 

They are told because of their patient endurance they will be kept from a specific hour.

The truth is that every promise to those who overcome belong to everyone who...overcomes. And the warnings given to everyone who has not, and does not overcome belong to everyone who remains unregenerate.

Just think about that, my friend.

 

The phrase patient endurance shows up with regularity following the anti-christ rising from the fatal head wound, it is in relation to saints. This hour is significant, as it comes up repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation, and Jesus Himself made mention of a very specific day and hour. It was in response to very specific questions asked of Him privately by the disciples.

Matthew 24:³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

I appreciate your reasoning, but, if you simply acknowledge the continuity of the timeline provided for us by the Lord in Revelation the need for this type of reasoning disappears.

I agree this in relation to the saints, that is, those that are born again during the Tribulation, but, in regards to salvation from the eternal perspective, our endurance does not change the fact that we are kept by the Power of God, not through our efforts which pertain to our temporal lives:

1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As we study we must learn to distinguish between the temporal and the eternal, and the letters of Revelation speak to overcoming in the temporal by the blood of the Lamb, so that the eternal destiny of those involved is sealed.

Continued...

Edited December 26, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[S.T. Ranger]

 

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:23-24

Keep in mind, brother Joe, that at this time the Rapture is yet a Mystery. Martha understand the foundational teachings of the resurrection of the dead, but has no understanding of the resurrection the Lord will bestow upon those believing on His name, and no understanding of the Rapture.

The writer of Hebrews tells us not to lay again the foundational principles of the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ, but to go on unto completion, which we have received through Christ our Lord.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

What follows this is His response, all the way up to chapter 26 of Matthew. This is the most accurate, chronological telling of these events, they come from Jesus,

I agree: Christ's teaching here deals directly with the Tribulation and His Return.

The one problem the Post-Tribulation believer is going to have is actually finding a text which teaches a resurrection in this time. No such resurrection exists. You view "those taken" as being raptured, when this is incorrect. When we consult the parallel passage in Luke we see that those taken (and see the Greek on "taken" and "left" for an interesting bit of trivia, lol)...

...die:

Luke 17:32-37

King James Version (KJV)

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

A few things to consider:

1. those saved in the examples given did not "leave" but were left behind; those that fell to the judgment...died;

2. we cannot debate whether this refers to Christ's Return;

3. in v.33 we see that in view is either preservation or loss of life, even as it was in the examples used by the Lord;

4. the disciples' question "Where, Lord?" can only refer to "Where are they taken, and His answer refers to where the eagles are gathered, which speaks of carcasses and carrion fowl.

and He answers their questions in the order they were asked.

1. The sign of His coming.

Matthew 24:²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

³² “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ³³ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

The red letters above are specific signs we are given by Jesus in regards to His coming. So what is the purpose of a sign? To point one in a direction. For starters, this is after "the abomination that causes desolation".

There is no argument concerning the correlations between these passages: in view is the Tribulation and the Return of Christ.

But you need to show a resurrection besides that of the Tribulation Martyrs if you want to impose the Rapture during these events.

But let's see where these signs appear in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Continuing on in Matthew, Jesus follows the above signs with this.

Matthew 24:³⁶ “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

A very specific day and hour is to follow what He has already told us will take place. Then He speaks about how it was before the great flood, which to me is speaking to the fact that people paid no heed to the signs and events.

It does, as well as continues the familiar theme of sudden judgment, as well as shows the wicked are completely unaware of what is taking place.

In Noah's time they laughed at him, as I understand it, they were not too concerned until the water started to rise. I don't see any reason why in the end time that people would react any differently, they are downright defiant according to John.

Agreed:

2 Peter 3:3-6

King James Version (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

And again, just as every passage dealing with the Lord's Return teaches, the unbelieving perish and the believing survive...physically.

That is the point of the question of the OP, my friend, to point out that it is both taught as well as necessary that believers that endure/survive the Tribulation are not glorified, but enter into the Kingdom physically, from whom come those descendants of theirs which rebel against God at the end of the Kingdom and are destroyed.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Matthew 24: That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

This to me is the clearest depiction of "the rapture" in all of scripture, and the sign Jesus attaches to it is "the thief."

Whereas the clearest picture I see is the Rapture of the Two Witnesses.

 

And where do we find that in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 16:¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

¹⁵“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Verse 15 holds the symbol, the very sign Jesus gives us Himself in His depiction of "the rapture."

Jesus Himself is the sign in view, not a statement:

Matthew 24:30-31

King James Version (KJV)

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The reason believers will not be deceived is because when Christ appears there will be no question, thus believers in that day are to endure. And when Christ does come, at that point His Angels gather the Elect as well as the unbelieving to the Sheep and Goat judgment. In the Rapture, it is Christ Who personally gathers us unto Himself apart from judgment:

Hebrews 9:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This, like many prophetic utterances do, has two applications I believe, and applies to both the Rapture as well as the Return. While non-mention is not a good case to build doctrine around, it is still true that no judgment is ever mentioned in Paul's teaching concerning glorification, and in the Return of Christ there is no mention of resurrection, apart from passages dealing with the resurrection of the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

This is the 6th bowl, the previous sign was following the 6th seal, and we see this in the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 9:¹² The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

¹³ The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. ¹⁴ It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

None of the sixth of any of the judgments...is the end. We see the Seventh Vial poured out, and at that point we see the result of that last judgment, and then...the Return of Christ.

Only by taking into consideration the dissimilarities of the judgments in Revelation can ne distinguish that each one is a separate and distinct event.

 

Here we see the Euphrates coming up again, and the mention of a very specific day and hour, with emphasis. 6th trumpet, 6th seal, 6th bowl.

Still within the Tribulation and prior to the Return of Christ, and...no resurrection in view other than the resurrection of tribulation martyrs. That is quite the dilemma for the Post-Tribulation view.

 

Note that the first woe occurred following the 5th trumpet. We see the "three woes" attached to the last three trumpets in this passage at the conclusion of the 4th trumpet below.

Revelation 8:¹³ As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

Agreed. Relevance to the Rapture?

 

This is probably too long already, so I am going to continue in another post.

Don't let length be an issue. This is how the details are examined in the detail needed, and I applaud your efforts.

God bless.

Edited December 26, 2014 by S.T. Ranger