Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Salty]

 

I also wonder, Who, do we as Believers in Christ rule over during the Mill; Since we reign with Him..  I also wonder if we are all of the First Resurrection during the Mill, as some believe, How can Satan deceive anyone at the end of the Mill.  Ponder, Ponder, Ponder on this.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

We will be ruling and reigning over the nations who come out of the Great Tribulation.

 

As there will be millions upon millions of people born during the Millennium, who will have only heard the stories of Jesus as many of the righteous that came out of the post-cross time have (like us!), but never knew the wars and wickedness that came before, they will be sorely tried by the wickedness that will be unleashed as Satan is let loose for a short time. Their faith will be in the visible King Jesus, and their faith will be sorely tested, not unlike Adam and Eve's ("Did God really say...?"). It will be a rubber-meets-the-road kind of experience for mortal Millennial believers.

 

 

Jesus said those of the resurrection they don't marry nor take in marriage. You think He was only speaking of the "resurrection of life" of John 5:28-29 with that, and not those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are also raised at His coming?

 

When our Lord Jesus returns on the last trump, that will be the end of this flesh age. All souls will be of either the "resurrection of life" through Christ, or they will be of the "resurrection of damnation" with their souls still subject to the "second death" after the Millennium.

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

Rev 20:7-10 - When the thousand year are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out and deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog to gather them for battle.  In number they are like the sand on the seashore.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

These are those alive near the end of the 1000 years, those deceived by Satan are all killed.  Opp's they do not have glorified resurrected bodies, for they are the one who came out of the great tribulation, which they washed in the Blood of the Lamb, these descendants of theirs are deceived by Satan.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Salty

 

Rev 20:7-10 - When the thousand year are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out and deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog to gather them for battle.  In number they are like the sand on the seashore.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

These are those alive near the end of the 1000 years, those deceived by Satan are all killed.  Opp's they do not have glorified resurrected bodies, for they are the one who came out of the great tribulation, which they washed in the Blood of the Lamb, these descendants of theirs are deceived by Satan.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

By the time of the start of Christ's thousand years reign, the great tribulation will have ended. The "great multitude" of Rev.7 are the saved in Christ Jesus, and they are resurrected or changed at Christ's coming.

 

Like Rev.20 shows, the only type of death remaining in that time will be the "second death", and that is not a death of the flesh. The "second death" is a casting of the spirit with soul into the "lake of fire" after the thousand years, not a flesh body going into it.

[Salty]

Salty

 

Where is your white robe, what does it look like.  Why did you have to wash it?   The robe is an outer garment.  We have been cleaned from the inside out.

 

Zech 8:20 - 23 - This what the Lord Almighty says;  Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty  I myself am going.  And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.  This is what the Lord Almighty says;  In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

 

And many say these all have their new resurrected bodies.  It looks like we have two groups, the Jews, and those from other nations.  All in the Mill.

 

A question for all?  Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron, if all have received their new resurrected glorified bodies.  We then must have some unproven resurrected saints.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Why is there this view in Rev.15 which does not speak of the 144,000 with Christ upon Zion, while the Rev.14 example does?

 

Rev.15:2-3

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

 

So how is this "great multitude" out of all nations and peoples standing before the throne and before The Lamb if only the 144,000 reign with Christ?

 

Rev.7:9-10

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

¹⁰ And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

 

It should be obvious that a lot more than Christ's elect of the seed of Israel (144,000) are going to be saved. So if the "great multitude" out of all nations and peoples are saved, but are not of the "first resurrection", then when are they resurrected unto Christ Jesus?

[Montana Marv]

 

Salty

 

Where is your white robe, what does it look like.  Why did you have to wash it?   The robe is an outer garment.  We have been cleaned from the inside out.

 

Zech 8:20 - 23 - This what the Lord Almighty says;  Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty  I myself am going.  And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.  This is what the Lord Almighty says;  In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

 

And many say these all have their new resurrected bodies.  It looks like we have two groups, the Jews, and those from other nations.  All in the Mill.

 

A question for all?  Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron, if all have received their new resurrected glorified bodies.  We then must have some unproven resurrected saints.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Why is there this view in Rev.15 which does not speak of the 144,000 with Christ upon Zion, while the Rev.14 example does?

 

Rev.15:2-3

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

 

So how is this "great multitude" out of all nations and peoples standing before the throne and before The Lamb if only the 144,000 reign with Christ?

 

Rev.7:9-10

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

¹⁰ And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

 

It should be obvious that a lot more than Christ's elect of the seed of Israel (144,000) are going to be saved. So if the "great multitude" out of all nations and peoples are saved, but are not of the "first resurrection", then when are they resurrected unto Christ Jesus?

 

Salty

 

Scripture does not say they are resurrected.  They move from the great tribulation into the Mill Kingdom on earth.  Rev 7:16, 17 - Never again will they hunger never again will they thirst.  The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. (here on earth - for this where the sun had its affect).  For the Lamb at the center of the Throne will be their shepherd, he will lead them to springs of living water.  And God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

 

This event of Rev 7 is a projection into the Mill Kingdom on earth, this is not a heavenly view of the throne in heaven anymore.  At the Second Coming Christ is here on earth and that  for 1000 years.  Those who come out from the great tribulation go directly in the Mill Kingdom here on earth where Christ/Lamb now resides.

 

You think this is a heavenly view, I say this is the Mill Kingdom on earth view.   Quite a bit of difference, therefore a lot of or views will be different, because our perspectives are not the same.  How one views this one event and its location separates pre - trib from post - trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

Scripture does not say they are resurrected.  They move from the great tribulation into the Mill Kingdom on earth.  Rev 7:16, 17 - Never again will they hunger never again will they thirst.  The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. (here on earth - for this where the sun had its affect).  For the Lamb at the center of the Throne will be their shepherd, he will lead them to springs of living water.  And God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

 

This event of Rev 7 is a projection into the Mill Kingdom on earth, this is not a heavenly view of the throne in heaven anymore.  At the Second Coming Christ is here on earth and that  for 1000 years.  Those who come out from the great tribulation go directly in the Mill Kingdom here on earth where Christ/Lamb now resides.

 

You think this is a heavenly view, I say this is the Mill Kingdom on earth view.   Quite a bit of difference, therefore a lot of or views will be different, because our perspectives are not the same.  How one views this one event and its location separates pre - trib from post - trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

It's evident you don't understand what those Rev.7 verses you quote really mean. Compare them to Rev.21 & 22.

 

Yes it most definitely... is a heavenly view about that "great multitude". Did you skip over the part about their standing before the throne and before The Lamb?

 

 

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

¹⁵ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

¹⁶ They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

 

Verse 15 even tells us they serve God day and night IN HIS TEMPLE, and that He shall dwell among them. That's a reference to the Zadok of Ezek.44 and God dwelling with us per Rev.21. The no more hunger, no more thirst, no more sun light on them, nor any heat, is a direct reference to the "spiritual body" resurrection state.

[Joshua David]

 

 

 

Omegaman, 

 

 

So, since we know that the rapture follows a resurrection, why isn't it incumbant on pre-tribbers, to demonstrate that there is a Resurrection before the tribulation. Posties can point to a post trib res in Rev 20:

 

This is a very valid argument, and to be honest, I dearly wish there was a single scripture that clearly and distinctly stated that there was a pretrib rapture, but I am honest enough to say that there isn't.  Yes I realize that there can be a strong argument made for the case for a post trib rapture, and if I was to build my doctrine on one or two verses then, yes,I would believe in a post tribulation doctrine.  But I try to the best of my ability to build my doctrine by examining all the scriptures.  By constantly checking my understanding of the scriptures by examining all the verses.  I see scripture like a lock, with only the correct key being able to unlock it.  Now there are many different keys that will 'slide' into the lock, but there is only one key that will line up with all the tumblers that will allow the key to turn and unlock it.

 

Personally, I think there is a logical fallacy here. You have assumed that there are two types of people the saved and the unsaved, and that the saved are raptured, and the unsaved destroyed. I submit that there is another class of people. The book of Isaiah speaks of Jews who survive the tribulation, at least that is how I see it, but I don't want to belabor that point here, after all, I am trying hard to keep the thread focused on looking for scripture specifying a pre-trib coming of Christ, not wanting to make this about defending "there, I ran circles around you with logic" type arguments from pre-tribbers. I don't mind doing that elsewhere, but I want to keep this thread a little purer

 

The reason that I have this 'logical fallacy', as you put it, is because this is exactly what the scripture says.  Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and theGreek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

But, I do not want to derail this thread, and this is not my intention.  I want you to see that I see all of these 'bits' of scripture, as evidence of a pretrib rapture.  For a pretrib rapture is the only key that will turn all the tumblers on the lock.  ( at least that I see ), if you wish to start another thread, I will be more than happy to move to that one. I can't start a thread, as I am still on 'probation' by not having enough posts.   

 

As Iron sharpens Iron,

 

Joshua David

 

Joshua, I really appreciate your honesty and your tone, I like your contributions so far. I like also the key/lock analogy. I think though, that a problem most of us have (and I will not exclude myself) is that we tend to read scripture through filters of prior belief. As a former pre-tribber I never assumed anything other than pre-trib, I did not know there were even other positions. One I heard there were, I took 8 months reading from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 looking for the groove and bumps that go on that key. Mind you, I only looked for one thing on that project, sequence of events from the destruction of the temple, to the 2nd advent of Christ, I did not at that time, seek to understand the millenium etc. I had a bedroom desk and table, even part of the floor covered in scraps of paper - notes - anything that could be seen as indicating sequence.

 

I took these notes and layed them out on a story board essentially, and tried to arrange them in a way that no verse or passage, contradicted another, or at least so that my understanding of verses, had no contradictions. At that time, 1986-1987, a post-trib sequence was all I could make work. So, what was I to do, continue to believe Hal Lindsay and my pastor? I couldn't, my allegiance was to scripture.

 

If I were to take on that project again, I might come to a different conclusion, but I have had this discussion here on Worthy, since 2004, and have not seen a convincing (to me) reason to go my pre-trib or any other persuasion.

 

It is not that I do not think there are no difficulties in my position, but I personal find them addressable without feeling like I am really having to stretch scripture or add to it to make it work. 

 

One thing that maybe I should have added to the OP, was a request for a convincing argument of the doctrine of Jesus imminent return, but that is addressed in other threads plenty. The reason I am tempted anyway, is that it seems like it is a necessary component to pre-tribism, and I find it equally missing in scripture, but that is another story.

 

- Omegaman 

 

Thank you for your kind words, and let me say that I am glad that you shared your story.  In fact if you can believe it, I had a very similar story, in that I came to a point in my life that I stopped trusting what other people said about the bible and seriously started studying what the bible said for myself.  This is the reason that I don't get hung up on what Darby taught, because I have never even read one single thing that Darby wrote.  I took my bible, my Greek and Hebrew lexicon ( for word studies on the original language ) and really look at not just about the rapture, but about everything that I had been 'taught' in church.  I studied salvation, the trinity, the end times, ect.  Basically everything that I could get my hands on.  I have through the course of my study poked many holes in the theory of pretribulation rapture, or at least in the reasons that some of its supporters give.  This is the reason that most of my 'evidence' is not based on just one or two scriptures.  You can truly tell the difference between someone who has really and truly studied this topic for themselves, and someone who is just parroting what their 'pastor' is saying or bible teacher is saying.  For instance, I don't believe in the doctrine of Imminence, because this doctrine is based on just a couple of scriptures that deal that basically say, "No man knows the day or the hour", and I see a different meaning to this phrase all together.  Also the scripture about  one man taken and one man left.  Any one who has really and truly studied this scripture in detail will know that this scripture deals with the second coming, and not the rapture

 

That being said, my belief in a pretribulation rapture is not about Imminence, or a few scriptures here or there, but based on a totality of my understanding of many different doctrines.  It is based on my understanding of Salvation during the church age compared with the salvation that is during the tribulation.  It is based on the study of dispensations, the differences between Israel and the church. what is taught about the millennium, the judgement of the sheep and goats, the repopulation of the earth, the different destinies of the Church vs. Israel.  Ect.  Ect....

 

I could very easily be a post tribulation rapture, if the Post Tribulation rapture answered all the questions that I had about the endtimes.   But there are too many tumblers that a post tribulation do not turn.  And yet, if you look at a pretribulation rapture it answers all the questions that I have, and I have yet to find one scripture that when you look closely at the scriptures, and perform word studies on the 'problem' scriptures, that is contradicted.  

 

As Iron sharpens Iron, 

 

 

Joshua David 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Joshua David

[Montana Marv]

 

 

Salty

 

Scripture does not say they are resurrected.  They move from the great tribulation into the Mill Kingdom on earth.  Rev 7:16, 17 - Never again will they hunger never again will they thirst.  The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. (here on earth - for this where the sun had its affect).  For the Lamb at the center of the Throne will be their shepherd, he will lead them to springs of living water.  And God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

 

This event of Rev 7 is a projection into the Mill Kingdom on earth, this is not a heavenly view of the throne in heaven anymore.  At the Second Coming Christ is here on earth and that  for 1000 years.  Those who come out from the great tribulation go directly in the Mill Kingdom here on earth where Christ/Lamb now resides.

 

You think this is a heavenly view, I say this is the Mill Kingdom on earth view.   Quite a bit of difference, therefore a lot of or views will be different, because our perspectives are not the same.  How one views this one event and its location separates pre - trib from post - trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

It's evident you don't understand what those Rev.7 verses you quote really mean. Compare them to Rev.21 & 22.

 

Yes it most definitely... is a heavenly view about that "great multitude". Did you skip over the part about their standing before the throne and before The Lamb?

 

 

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

¹⁵ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

¹⁶ They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

 

Verse 15 even tells us they serve God day and night IN HIS TEMPLE, and that He shall dwell among them. That's a reference to the Zadok of Ezek.44 and God dwelling with us per Rev.21. The no more hunger, no more thirst, no more sun light on them, nor any heat, is a direct reference to the "spiritual body" resurrection state.

 

Salty

 

All I can say is wow.

 

These individuals are Raptured into heaven and standing before the throne and the Lamb.  I am trying to figure out when, or if the Second Coming happened.  And why Christ is now in Heaven with these people and not on earth for 1000 years as Scripture says.  If the Rapture and Second Coming are at the same time as you believe, then these individuals must be on earth.  Because Christ is on earth at the Second Coming.  Do you see my point.  The Second Coming means Christ is at the Mt of Olives and His duration on earth is 1000 years.  But you put Him in Heaven.  Is there a third or fourth Coming of Christ after the Second Coming.  Very interesting.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

 

 

 

It's evident you don't understand what those Rev.7 verses you quote really mean. Compare them to Rev.21 & 22.

 

Yes it most definitely... is a heavenly view about that "great multitude". Did you skip over the part about their standing before the throne and before The Lamb?

 

 

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

¹⁵ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

¹⁶ They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

 

Verse 15 even tells us they serve God day and night IN HIS TEMPLE, and that He shall dwell among them. That's a reference to the Zadok of Ezek.44 and God dwelling with us per Rev.21. The no more hunger, no more thirst, no more sun light on them, nor any heat, is a direct reference to the "spiritual body" resurrection state.

 

Salty

 

All I can say is wow.

 

These individuals are Raptured into heaven and standing before the throne and the Lamb.  I am trying to figure out when, or if the Second Coming happened.  And why Christ is now in Heaven with these people and not on earth for 1000 years as Scripture says.  If the Rapture and Second Coming are at the same time as you believe, then these individuals must be on earth.  Because Christ is on earth at the Second Coming.  Do you see my point.  The Second Coming means Christ is at the Mt of Olives and His duration on earth is 1000 years.  But you put Him in Heaven.  Is there a third or fourth Coming of Christ after the Second Coming.  Very interesting.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Per Rev.21, there is no more temple after Christ's thousand years. But during, there is, and it is the temple of Ezek.40 forward established ON EARTH, and Ezek.44 is specific to what Christ's priests will be doing there in serving Him. That is the view about the "great multitude" in Rev.7, but the part about God dwelling with them is about the time after Christ's thousand years when there is no more need of a temple per Rev.21:22.

 

If you understand 1 Cor.15:23-28, the full Godhead does not return to earth until after the thousand years reign of Christ on earth. The Father is still in Heaven until after Christ's thousand years reign. That's what Paul was talking about when he said Christ must reign until all enemies are made His footstool, and then He will deliver the Kingdom up to The Father, and God will be all in all.

 

Rev.7:9 forward is not about a rapture during nor before the tribulation, it is a future-forward view after Christ's return and thereafter.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

Salty

 

Scripture does not say they are resurrected.  They move from the great tribulation into the Mill Kingdom on earth.  Rev 7:16, 17 - Never again will they hunger never again will they thirst.  The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. (here on earth - for this where the sun had its affect).  For the Lamb at the center of the Throne will be their shepherd, he will lead them to springs of living water.  And God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

 

This event of Rev 7 is a projection into the Mill Kingdom on earth, this is not a heavenly view of the throne in heaven anymore.  At the Second Coming Christ is here on earth and that  for 1000 years.  Those who come out from the great tribulation go directly in the Mill Kingdom here on earth where Christ/Lamb now resides.

 

You think this is a heavenly view, I say this is the Mill Kingdom on earth view.   Quite a bit of difference, therefore a lot of or views will be different, because our perspectives are not the same.  How one views this one event and its location separates pre - trib from post - trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

It's evident you don't understand what those Rev.7 verses you quote really mean. Compare them to Rev.21 & 22.

 

Yes it most definitely... is a heavenly view about that "great multitude". Did you skip over the part about their standing before the throne and before The Lamb?

 

 

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

¹⁵ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

¹⁶ They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

 

Verse 15 even tells us they serve God day and night IN HIS TEMPLE, and that He shall dwell among them. That's a reference to the Zadok of Ezek.44 and God dwelling with us per Rev.21. The no more hunger, no more thirst, no more sun light on them, nor any heat, is a direct reference to the "spiritual body" resurrection state.

 

Salty

 

All I can say is wow.

 

These individuals are Raptured into heaven and standing before the throne and the Lamb.  I am trying to figure out when, or if the Second Coming happened.  And why Christ is now in Heaven with these people and not on earth for 1000 years as Scripture says.  If the Rapture and Second Coming are at the same time as you believe, then these individuals must be on earth.  Because Christ is on earth at the Second Coming.  Do you see my point.  The Second Coming means Christ is at the Mt of Olives and His duration on earth is 1000 years.  But you put Him in Heaven.  Is there a third or fourth Coming of Christ after the Second Coming.  Very interesting.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Hi Marv. You do make a good point, but I don't think things will be as static or restricted for Jesus and us saints. I don't see why God would exclude Jesus from heaven just because he is reigning on earth for 1000 years.   If you are the king of Babylon and you send your son to rule over Syria, would you restrict him from visiting his home city? When things are settled on earth, I don't see any verses restricting Jesus from moving around. And from an understanding of the resurrection body, it seems Jesus was free to travel between heaven and earth when he kept appearing to the disciples just after the resurrection, so its not unfeasible that Jesus has a strong presence in both places. And we will be with him forever, and so I see the same role for us believers, having a presence in both places.