Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Salty]

I can only declare from God's Word how it is written that Jesus comes to gather His Church at the end ... of the tribulation, and not prior to it.

1. In Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus gives a direct statement that He comes 'after the tribulation' to gather His saints, which means His Church. The two examples follow the order which Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.4 for the harpazo ("caught up") event. The Matt.24 example is about the "asleep" saints gathered from heaven that Jesus brings with Him, and the Mark 13 version is about the saints still alive on earth being gathered to Him. That is a major sign those Scriptures are .... definitely for His Church, and not just a writing meant only for Jews.

2. Also with Christ's Olivet discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus gave 7 main signs there which are the seals of Revelation 6. The very last and final sign He gave was that of His coming to gather His Church.

3. In Revelation 16:15, within the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still ... warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". This is not Him warning only a small group of saints, like Pre-trib's "tribulation saints" idea. It is a warning to His Church on earth before His coming to gather them, which means a rapture has NOT happened yet even by that 6th Vial timing.

4. Jesus comes to gather His Church on the 7th Vial of Rev.16, because that is the time when He gathers the nations to do battle at Armageddon, and ... that is a "day of the Lord" event to occur only on the final last day of this world, which also is the time of the resurrection of the saints.

5. In 1 Thess.4, Apostle Paul declared that we which are alive on earth shall NOT ... precede the "asleep" saints to heaven. They are raised first on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. That means the resurrection forecast for the end of this world on the last day. I have noticed the majority on men's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine are confused about the timing when the resurrection will be (see John 5:28-29 also). Well, the asleep saints being resurrected prior ... to that last day is NOT written in God's Word, and that is what would be required for a Pre-trib Rapture to be a true Bible doctrine.

6. Per Paul in 1 Thess.5, and Peter in 2 Peter 3:10, both said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Peter's description is more succinct since he included one of the events to occur on that day being God's consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off this earth. Now for those who might be kind of thick headed, that means on the "day of the Lord" all rebellion on this earth is ended by Christ.

7. For many years the Pre-trib Rapture doctors preached the 'Imminent' theory that Jesus could come at "any moment" and to be ready. Associated with that they preached that Jesus will come "as a thief in the night" and to be ready. Per Rev.16:15 our Lord Jesus does come "as a thief" like He said. But in 1 Thess.5 Paul also said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". That means of course, that our Lord Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord". Per the OT prophets, the "day of the Lord" is about a time at the very end of a destruction by God upon the wicked on this earth. It is the day when He comes to end man's works and the devil's works on the earth. Common sense then tells us from that our Lord Jesus comes on the final day of this world, meaning after the tribulation like He said, and not prior to the tribulation like the Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches.

All I have time for today.

 

[Salty]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All of the Church is there, why wouldn't the elders be there also ? The Saints of Old are all there also. 

The view of the 24 elders in Heaven is a future look, not an event of today's world time. There are several clues to know this:

Rev 4:4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

 

The time when the rewards are handed out to the saints is only when Jesus returns. We are even told in Hebrews 11 that we have been provided something better (The Gospel manifested by Christ's death and resurrection) that they without us should not be made perfect. So the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles are NOT ... sitting around The Father's throne in Heaven today. The resurrection has not even happened yet.

The "new song" they sing is for when the Jesus has returned and we are gathered to Him, and that's at Zion in Jerusalem on earth (see Rev.14 & 15).

Jesus has only redeemed us in the spiritual sense by Faith so far, not physically yet by being gathered to Him, for that happens with His 2nd coming which is still in our future.

The offices of priests and kings has not been handed out yet today as He promised to His elect who overcome.

 

Because it's easy to grasp those points are for the future when Jesus comes at the end of this world, it's also easy to see how men's doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture has added false ideas to those Rev.4 & 5 chapters to make their deceived members think the Church has been raptured at that point, when it has not. Same thing is done with the "great multitude" of Rev.7 when in actuality the idea is how they suffered the tribulation and by doing that they washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb Jesus, and thus later are standing upon Zion with Him, which is a future forward look at Christ's 2nd coming and gathering, and going to Jerusalem to reign for the 1,000 years, and evermore.

 

[ENOCH2010]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All of the Church is there, why wouldn't the elders be there also ? The Saints of Old are all there also. 

I ask how they got there, were they raptured as you teach pre-trib or were they already in heaven when the rapture happened?

[Revelation Man]

53 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

I ask how they got there, were they raptured as you teach pre-trib or were they already in heaven when the rapture happened?

That goes without saying.

 

I have laid down the gauntlet, Revelation 19 can not be refuted. 

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Salty said:

Jesus comes to gather His Church on the 7th Vial of Rev.16

Except you won't find anything within Revelation to prove this.  It is pure conjecture. 

What many Christians conveniently forget is that from Revelation chapter 6 through chapter 18, we have a preview of the judgments which will come upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. The Church (or churches) are simply not mentioned in these chapters because the Church is already in Heaven.

[ENOCH2010]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That goes without saying.

 

I have laid down the gauntlet, Revelation 19 can not be refuted. 

The Bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", the group coming with the Lord in Rev. 19 are all the righteous that have died since the Lord went back to the Father.

[FresnoJoe]

4 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", the group coming with the Lord in Rev. 19 are all the righteous that have died since the Lord went back to the Father.

And They're

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

Coming Back Down

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 1:14-15

To Jerusalem Town

Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Zechariah 8:3

Maranatha~!

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

Except you won't find anything within Revelation to prove this.  It is pure conjecture. 

What many Christians conveniently forget is that from Revelation chapter 6 through chapter 18, we have a preview of the judgments which will come upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. The Church (or churches) are simply not mentioned in these chapters because the Church is already in Heaven.

This is true.... but Rev. 17 and 18 are not really telling us anything that hasn't already happened by the end of Rev. 16..... Rev. 17 and Rev. 18 is only enhanced versions of the Harlot (False Religion) being destroyed and Rev. 18 is Babylon (The Nations/World) being Judged by God.......which you mentioned. 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", the group coming with the Lord in Rev. 19 are all the righteous that have died since the Lord went back to the Father.

It is irrelevant one way or the other. If there has been a steady stream as hey die or if all are raised at once, those of us who are alive and Remain are turned from corruptible to incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye, to go to Heaven to MARRY the Lamb. Paul says not ALL SHALL SLEEP, so I take it that those in the Graves are sleeping, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 says they awake when the trumpet sounds. 

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

12 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It is irrelevant one way or the other. If there has been a steady stream as hey die or if all are raised at once, those of us who are alive and Remain are turned from corruptible to incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye, to go to Heaven to MARRY the Lamb. Paul says not ALL SHALL SLEEP, so I take it that those in the Graves are sleeping, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 says they awake when the trumpet sounds. 

 

 

Yes it is relevant, Rev 19 is speaking about the second coming of the Lord. The ones the Lord brings with him are the saints that have died for the past 2000 years, not the so called bride of Christ. The rapture happens at this moment in time (not 7 years prior as the pre-trib doctrine teaches). When the Lord has gathered his church we go to Israel, not to some mystical place called heaven.