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21 minutes ago, Salty said:

Matt 9:15
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
KJV

Christ's servants are those symbolic "children of the bridechamber", which is pointing to the idea of waiting for Him with fasting, until His 2nd coming. Thus they are NOT the Bride. Here is the Bride:

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

 

I agree.  Never understood what's so difficult about understanding the bride of Christ when its expressly stated.

  • Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”  And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.  It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Revelation 21:9-14

 

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2 minutes ago, Salty said:

No, there is no clear distinction between Christ's Church and Israel, which is easily shown by Apostle Paul in this Scripture:

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Hate to break the news to ya, but Paul just dumped Pre-trib's false idea of a separation between believing Israel and believing Gentiles.

Notice he did not say... "commonwealth of the Church", but instead "commonwealth of Israel".

 

Last sentence is a good point!

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6 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Matthew 24:48

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

When you remove the blessed motivation of the saints ,you remove the eminent return of Christ removing us from wrath. You remove the BLESSED HOPE that the CHURCH has. The church began at pentecost(indwelling spirit) and the church is GONE for the next thing God deals with; ISRAEL.

The church did not reject the messiah. 

The church is not mentioned after rev 4 and not again until rev 19! The saints in rev are those who are saved during the rev and not those who were already walking with Christ.

You do not understand the distinction between the church and Israel. I will go into this with many other scripture later. I am a busy gal:)

 

I pray that you ask the Lord to teach you and guide you. You have no hope . You are counting on  dodging Gods wrath. The church is  NOT the woman. The CHURCH is not the one grafted out and added back in in the tribulation. 

My question to post tribbers:

Why do you not believe what God has said?

Why do you think God would drag you through his wrath right along with the earth dwellers and the WOMAN?

 

One word that very much applies:

Dispensation.

 

 

Blessed be the name of the LORD!!

It is amazing Biblical IGNORANCE to think that the children of Israel are all unbelievers on Christ, which is essentially what your pre-trib rapture doctrines are saying right there in your post! You should automatically know those kind of ideas are false, and do not align with God's Holy Writ!

And I'll remind you to be very 'careful' on the ground you're treading, with attacking me personally, saying I have no hope, etc.

The majority of the Christian Churches in the western Christian nations are likely made up of a majority of the children of Israel! Have you not ever considered the Genesis 35 and Genesis 48 prophecies about Israel becoming "a company of nations"??? No, of course not, because teaching REAL Bible history is against what the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors want to do.

And did you MISS counting the believing JEWS that were present at Pentecost???

Acts 2:5
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
KJV

 

Acts 2:9-11
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
KJV

 

I really think you ought take your hatred of Jews and Israel somewhere else. The attempt to create an all Gentile only Church is a sick idea those of the likes of Darby created to deceive with.

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3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The Scripture is clear enough, really? Why all the divisions between denominations, scholars, experts, pastors, teachers, pre-mid-post tribulation, amillennial, premillennial views etc. etc.?

I'm pretribulation myself and that's my hermeneutics.

There is some debate as to the exact timing of the Bema Seat. Some understand it to occur at the moment of death for each believer. Others believe the Bema Seat to occur during the end times, with all believers being judged at that time. It does not truly matter when the Bema Seat occurs. It is far more important that we be prepared for the Bema Seat.

Yes, the Scripture is clear enough, IF... it is actually read thoroughly. I've already covered it in a previous post line upon line to show it is a future forward view after Christ's return, just like the Rev.7 view of the "great multitude" which the pre-trib rapture doctors ALSO grossly misinterpret to a rapture.

 

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9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Last sentence is a good point!

Yes, the "commonwealth of Israel" idea is about a commonwealth of nations attached to God's Israel. That is how it outlaid in the OT prophecies for the future, like the end of Isaiah 19.

Too many brethren don't understand that the name Israel represents God's Salvation, as it is tied to both God's Birthright blessings, and directly to The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The name means to overcome with God's help.

Now in Europe in John Darby's time who created the Dispensationalist ideas, there apparently was still a lot of hatred against the orthodox Jews who still rejected Christ Jesus. Many countries in old Europe treated them as enemies, and barred them entry into their nations, so many of them became vagabonds, going from one European nation to another. Martin Luther showed a great hatred of the unbelieving Jews, which I think that's where a lot of that comes from. Nevertheless, the European Christian nations told the unbelieving Jews to convert to Jesus or get out.

That hatred apparently carried over a lot in Darby's generation, because his Dispensational idea about Israel being 'left-behind', and then by themselves having a nation on earth while Christ's Church is in Heaven ruling over them is actually a self-agrandizement over them, and nowhere is any such idea like that written in God's Word.

 

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11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, a classic misunderstanding, and you can explain to post tribbers till you are blue in the face, and one week later they will cite the very same, tired old passage, that is irrelevant.  We UNDERSTAND there will be people in the Tribulation that give their Lives to Jesus Christ, why do you guys PRETEND we haven't explained this 40 million times ? Of course after the Rapture their will be many converts, we see that God is still sending preachers of the Gospel forth to preach, we understand that 5 of the Virgins were FOOLISH and did not have enough oil (Holy Spirit) to make it to the Marriage of the Lamb. These are the SAINTS who are overcome by Satan. This is elementary. So PEOPLE BECOME CHRISTIANS, after the Rapture (I am sure if you are left behind as 100's of millions are taken, you will repent, as would I and become a true Christian, If I was left behind, I would understand, I had sin in my life somewhere that needed dealing with !! ) and THOSE ARE THE Saints that Satan makes war with and Beheads, because when he can not Get at Israel (Rev. 12) he is angry and turns towards the Christians or Remnant (Small part that is Left) of the SEED of the Woman (Israel). 

So you're saying that the church is taken before the Tribulation? Ok. 

After the rapture of the church the wrath of God falls on earth, this is the tribulation, yes? Ok.

No believer in Jesus Christ is appointed to wrath, ever. Truth.

Yet you have 100's of millions of the children of God in the wrath of God. Either all believers are 'not appointed to wrath' or you got your exegesis in quandry.

The truth is there are three main parts to the 70th week: The 1st half, Tribulation, and the wrath of God (both occur in the 2nd half). Tribulation is what ALL believers go through, even the church, especially the church (is the any doubt the Christian Church needs purification?). Believers; there is no Jew or Gentile, all are one in Jesus Christ, are then gathered; rapture is a manufactured term and not appropriate, at the point between the end of 'great tribulation' and the beginning of the wrath of God. No other interpretation is possible. No other scenario has merit. There simply is no other way.

Tribulation is for believers and the beast is sent to create the fire that purifies the church. Then wrath falls when everyone has without doubt made their eternal choice.

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5 hours ago, Salty said:

Fact is, to claim the saints in Revelation are left out of Christ's Church is to distort the very fabric of God's Truth in His Word! It's kind of like saying, "Those aren't the real saints, I'm a real saint", pretty much the height of obnoxiousness. And the saints mentioned in Rev.13 is pointing to those ordained in Christ all the way from the foundation of the world, an idea which Apostles Paul and Peter both used to point to Christ's Church in Ephesians 1 & 2 and 1 Peter 1.

 

No it is like saying they were not ready when the Bridegroom came and they were LOCKED OUT Matthew 25:10 While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.

If you or I miss the Rapture we have sin in our lives, that is called an ILLUSTRATION, that doesn't say we will miss the Rapture, so your point is moot. The fact is after the Rapture there will be men and women who become Saints, they will have to endure until the end, it isn't God's fault they weren't ready when he sent the Bridegroom for the Bride.  The Saints mentioned in Rev. 13 can ONLY BE Saints who were saved after the Rapture. Paul and Peters words have nothing to do with Rev. 13.

5 hours ago, Salty said:

No, there is no clear distinction between Christ's Church and Israel, which is easily shown by Apostle Paul in this Scripture:

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Hate to break the news to ya, but Paul just dumped Pre-trib's false idea of a separation between believing Israel and believing Gentiles.

Notice he did not say... "commonwealth of the Church", but instead "commonwealth of Israel".

Still don't get it do you ? Messianic Jews will be Raptured also, we are ONE in Christ Jesus, via the Blood of Christ as individuals. But we as Gentiles have a calling, to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the utter ends of the world, when this is accomplished, the "TIMES OF THE GENTILES" will be Fulfilled. Israel on the other hand has been blinded by God "UNTIL THE TIME OF THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN FULFILLED"....How hard is that to understand ? There are Jews in Christ who come to him individually, because they heard the word and believed, likewise there are many evil, God hating Gentiles. All of those in Christ Jesus will be Raptured to Heaven to Marry the Lamb of God. Israel's blindness will CEASE because God sends Elijah to turn them back  unto their  God and Messiah, AFTER THEY REPENT !! Daniels 70 Week Prophecy says as much. 

Israel and the Gentile nations have different callings, else Jesus would have said "When the time of the Gentiles are Fulfilled" and Paul would not have said that Israel is blinded until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. 

No matter how bad you want it to be one entity, it is Two, Gentiles and Israel. Both peoples can be Raptured and both peoples can be saved by God at the Second Coming and Both peoples can go to Hell. So there is no difference, but Israel and the Gentile Nations have a Separate calling.

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.  Never understood what's so difficult about understanding the bride of Christ when its expressly stated.

  • Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”  And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.  It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Revelation 21:9-14

You don't really think Jesus marries a city do you ? Notice they have the names of the 12 Disciples or Apostles on the Foundation Stones and on the Gates were written the 12 Tribes of Israel.  Only the Beheaded Saints rule with Jesus Christ for 1000 years,   (Revelation 20:4) the other who Married the Lam in Heaven and the Saints of Israel will already be living in the New Jerusalem when it comes down, WE are the Bride !! Jesus marry's Jerusalem........!! Don't think so

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you're saying that the church is taken before the Tribulation? Ok. 

After the rapture of the church the wrath of God falls on earth, this is the tribulation, yes? Ok.

No believer in Jesus Christ is appointed to wrath, ever. Truth.

Yet you have 100's of millions of the children of God in the wrath of God. Either all believers are 'not appointed to wrath' or you got your exegesis in quandry.

The truth is there are three main parts to the 70th week: The 1st half, Tribulation, and the wrath of God (both occur in the 2nd half). Tribulation is what ALL believers go through, even the church, especially the church (is the any doubt the Christian Church needs purification?). Believers; there is no Jew or Gentile, all are one in Jesus Christ, are then gathered; rapture is a manufactured term and not appropriate, at the point between the end of 'great tribulation' and the beginning of the wrath of God. No other interpretation is possible. No other scenario has merit. There simply is no other way.

Tribulation is for believers and the beast is sent to create the fire that purifies the church. Then wrath falls when everyone has without doubt made their eternal choice.

We can't know how many will turn to Christ after the Rapture, it might be many or just a few, that is an unknown, what is known is that after the Rapture if you turn unto God, then you must endure because you did not take care of business when you had a chance. 

The whole last 7 Years is the 70th Week of Daniel. The Bride always stays in the Chamber for 7 Days, so the two fit like a glove. The 70th Week is designed to get Israel to turn back unto God, and to teach her to trust in God again. And to punish the ungodly and ultimately destroy the wicked. 

It is not just about the Tribulation, it is a 7 Year Period where the Time of the Gentiles is OVER and once again Israel is called upon to be Gods chosen people for a time such as this, to preach the Gospel to the world, the Two=Witnesses will preform miracles etc. etc. The Gentile church is in Heaven. The Evil Gentiles are about to get destroyed.

Why would the Tribulation be for believers ? Makes absolutely no sense, WE ALREADY BELIEVE !! 

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22 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You don't really think Jesus marries a city do you ?

Hi Revelation man

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

Would you prefer Jesus marries men?, and has a multitude of wives included.  That is ludicrous.  Do you call yourself Jesus bride?  You a man, are you going to marry Christ, who was a man?  Sounds twisted to me. 

The bride is the city, as the scriptures state, only you find it hard to understand.  The City Holy Jerusalem coming down is made of spirit.  It's not made of real walls and stones, and gates for that is all symbolic.  The righteousness of God's city Zion is coming down with Christ and his saints.  His laws and teachings which those resurrected saints converted by will rule over the earth now.  The laws of a heavenly kingdom.  True doctrine from above.  It's depicted as a woman, because she produces children out of her teachings.

The saints are wearing the "righteousness" of that city.  It's not a real marriage, but a union of Christ and all his followers who are wearing the righteousness of that city.  Their white robes are a covering of righteousness, what they have put on.  The highlight is not us, but the "righteousness" they are wearing which came out of that Kingdom.  This is what's glorified, Christ and the truth he gave.  All because of Christ, his doing.  The saints are now one with Christ because of the unity of truth. All who are part of the truth are in Christ, and in God, and in Zion, now one with this city, a part of that spiritual building.

When Christ comes for his bride, he is coming to collect anyone wearing white robes, being the righteousness of the Kingdom of God, and will meld them with all things heavenly and officially make them part of his kingdom.  Accepted. This is depicted as a marriage, the Word of God and the truth,...can never be broken.  It all comes out of that City.

Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi Revelation man

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

Would you prefer Jesus marries men?, and has a multitude of wives included.  That is ludicrous.  Do you call yourself Jesus bride?  You a man, are you going to marry Christ, who was a man?  Sounds twisted to me. 

The bride is the city, as the scriptures state, only you find it hard to understand.  The City Holy Jerusalem coming down is made of spirit.  It's not made of real walls and stones, and gates for that is all symbolic.  The righteousness of God's city Zion is coming down with Christ and his saints.  His laws and teachings which those resurrected saints converted by will rule over the earth now.  The laws of a heavenly kingdom.  True doctrine from above.  It's depicted as a woman, because she produces children out of her teachings.

The saints are wearing the "righteousness" of that city.  It's not a real marriage, but a union of Christ and all his followers who are wearing the righteousness of that city.  Their white robes are a covering of righteousness, what they have put on.  The highlight is not us, but the "righteousness" they are wearing which came out of that Kingdom.  This is what's glorified, Christ and the truth he gave.  All because of Christ, his doing.  The saints are now one with Christ because of the unity of truth. All who are part of the truth are in Christ, and in God, and in Zion, now one with this city, a part of that spiritual building.

When Christ comes for his bride, he is coming to collect anyone wearing white robes, being the righteousness of the Kingdom of God, and will meld them with all things heavenly and officially make them part of his kingdom.  Accepted. This is depicted as a marriage, the Word of God and the truth,...can never be broken.  It all comes out of that City.

Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 

 

 

THERE IS NO SEX IN HEAVEN, I DO NOT HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE SPEAKING ABOUT

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