Could the antichrist be a Muslim

[Daniel 11:36]

They are two different interventions .... one just before the 70th week decreed for Israel and one at the end of the battle of Armageddon 2550 days later 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[iamlamad]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

The Birth Place of the Anti-Christ Revealed

Isaiah says the Anti-Christ is an Assyrian.The Anti-Christ is said to come to power via the fourth beast in the last days per Daniel Chapter Seven. The Anti-Christ is also said to arise out of the Grecian empire in the last days, so how do we reconcile these different understandings ?

This is established fairly easily, Daniel did say the understandings would be bound up until the end. The Anti-Christ in Daniel chapters seven and eight is shown, if read properly, to arise out of two kingdoms at once, but how can this be ?

Daniel chapter seven is fairly straightforward, we understand this to be about the four beast systems, the fourth beast is where the little horn (Anti-Christ) will arise out of, most everyone understands the fourth beast to have been Rome, but in the last days/end times this has to be the European Union.

Now Daniel chapter eight is explained in detail by Gabriel the angel, was the he goat (Alexander the Great) conquering Persia ( the Ram ) and Gabriel interpreted this dream for Daniel.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 We should note, this is speaking of the end time, it is not speaking of Antiochus who came before Jesus was even born. The word Indignation means: ( Greek Word za'am meaning Gods Fury at Sin) so at the Last End of Indignation means right before Gods Judgment of Sin/Vials or Bowls of Gods Wrath (Revelation).

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. ( The Four Generals that stood up in Alexanders stead were Ptolemy , Seleucus , Cassander and Lysimachus. )

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is clearly speaking about the end times/last days when the sins have come full/ bowls of Gods wrath, a fierce king shall arise out of one of the four kingdoms that stood up in Alexander the Greats Stead, speaking dark sentences (understanding Riddles and conundrums) and he comes to power. 

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: (Satan Possesses him) and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, (he claims to Be God) and by peace shall destroy many:(Through a Peace Treaty he deceives many) he shall also stand up against the Prince (Jesus) of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 Jesus destroys the Anti-Christ his kings and their armies without hand ( with the Sword of the Spirit/Holy Spirit) by the countenance of his coming, Amen. This guy magnifies himself and says in the temple of God, I am God !! 

Now,  so many people say this is about Antiochus, so I always feel the need to prove that this is about the end times, when Gods wrath is come full. This is about the little horn/Anti-Christ. And he arises out of their kingdom in the last days,  so in essence he arises out of one of the Four Generals kingdoms in the last days, but which one ? Well, since the Anti-Christ arises out of the fourth beast also, then this other Kingdom has to lie within the borders of the European Union. Only Cassander's kingdom of Greece is in the European Union !! The "Assyrian" arising from Greece would be very, very possible since Greece shares a border with Turkey, and many, many Turks live in Greece, so the Assyrian Anti-Christ is born in Greece, and comes to power in Greece, then in the European Union. But what does John say in Revelation about the Beast that arises out of the Sea ? By the way, he was on Patmos, a small Greek Island when he saw this vision.

Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The Main body is described by John as like a leopard !!

Put it all together, the "Assyrian" Anti-Christ is born in Greece, of Turkish parents or grandparents , he comes to power in the European Union.

This is where the Anti-Christ is from.  

Agreed; John  saw a leopard beast. He was more leopard that anything else. I would think the leopard would more represent Alexander the great than any other. But He will have power of numbers as the Bear of Persian had. And He will be authority as none other, as Nebuchadnezzar had.

"he arises out of their kingdom in the last days,"  WRONG! It was Antioichus that rose our of THEIR (the four generals) kingdom.

Does this hint that the same will be true for the Beast of Rev. 13?  Daniel does not tell us. You simply cannot prove that Dan. 8 is about our future. This theory simply does not fit what is written.

HOWEVER: could there be a hidden second meaning that the Beast of Rev. 13 will copy Antiochus? I will say that Antiochus was a TYPE of the Beast in Rev. 13.  But I don't know how far we can push "types." Does a leopard beast mean this man has to be born in Greece as Alexander was? I don't think so. I do know he will be a "king of the North" for Daniel tells us this much. I don't thing it being a leopard beast could be proof he will be born in any certain nation. he could be born in Africa somewhere! Rather, I think it show how much he will like Alexander.

"We should note, this is speaking of the end time, it is not speaking of Antiochus "  WRONG! You are pulling this out of context: the context of the ENTIRE CHAPTER is about the ram and the goat, and how the goat (Alexander the Great) defeated Darius of the Persians.  It is the end of THEIR kingdom Daniel is speaking of.

I agree he will come via the 4th beast of Daniel 7. But keep in mind, all these beasts in Daniel 7 will be CONCURRANT and living at the same time! When the leopard beast is killed, the other three remain alive for a short season....my guess a little over a year. Therefore, the 4th beast in Daniel 7 will be 7 nations left out of ten. It is my guess some of the ten will have 'stan" at the end of their name.

In short, your argument is weak, because you put Daniel 8 in the mix. I don't buy that. Otherwise, good post.

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

They are two different interventions .... one just before the 70th week decreed for Israel and one at the end of the battle of Armageddon 2550 days later 

Each "intervention" will be a "coming" for in each case He will leave heaven and descend to earth.  Paul calls it a coming for the rapture. Good post. It is truth.

Edited May 30, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 5/27/2017 at 7:50 AM, Diaste said:

...

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are not consecutive. Seals open when trumpets blow and the bowls are poured out at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet when the "It is finished."

...          

Since they are written in a given order, you will find it impossible to prove your theory of rearrangement using scripture. You can try though! ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:49 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Sorry, but that is not proper reading comprehension.  A writer does not give you a topic in the first sentence and then refer to some other topic after it.  The day Paul is speaking of in the first sentence includes both His coming and the gathering, and then continues to speak about it in the following sentences.  Paul specifically says that this day will not come before the falling away or the anti-christ is revealed, and that is perfectly clear in the passage.

As far as the apostasy, I never suggested it had anything to do with the restrainer.  The apostasy is in reference to people walking away from faith in God, and there is no other group that fits that description other than believers.  One cannot walk away from faith in something they never had faith in, so I'm not following you at all on this.

God bless

Only someone who mistakenly thinks the gathering is on the last day would write this. It simply does not fit all the end time scriptures. And it certainly does not fit Paul in 1 thes. 4 & 5.

"this day..." Indeed, WHICH DAY, Paul? It seems not even the Greek manuscripts we have can agree. I believe "day of the Lord" is what Paul wrote, simply because He use that day in his first letter.

There are two things going on here in this passage: the gathering and the mistaken notion that they were already IN the Day of the Lord.  It is easy to see how they could be upset if Paul had taught them of a pre-"day of the Lord" rapture. It is NOT so easy to understand if He had taught them of a last day of the age rapture. They all should know, if that was the case, that all they had to do was hang on for seven years, and then they would be saved. So no reason to be upset.

Paul's choice was to show them how they could know with no doubt, that they were IN the Day of the Lord:  If they see the man of sin revealed, that will be proof positive the Day has previously started and they are IN IT.

in fact, just this part of Paul's argument proves that the day must come sometime before Christ comes.

The THEME is not the day: it is the COMING. They are NOT the same.

"As far as the apostasy, I never suggested it had anything to do with the restrainer. "  No, you didn't but PAUL DID! I am amazed you have not seen this. Have you really studied verses 6, 7, and 8?  They are all telling us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way."

Please tell me: in  verse 3B in Paul's argument (not in reality) is the man of sin revealed or not?

[iamlamad]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:39 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Absolutely zero scriptural support for this statement.

You wrote that wrong. Here, allow me to assist:

"I can find absolutely zero scriptural support for this statement."

There IS support; the truth is, you have not seen it.

Try studying 1 Thes. 5, along with Rev. 4-7

[iamlamad]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:38 PM, wingnut- said:

 

The 6th seal is not pre-trib, so we actually agree on the when, and it is after the 6th seal we are gathered.

Did you not understand the 5th seal - which gives us a clue for the time of the rapture?

The 5th seal is about the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.  They are told that they cannot be revenged until their number is full - so not until the very last CHURCH AGE MARTYR. 

We all know that God is holding back judgment until the time of judgment comes: we are under the age of grace. It is not time for judgment - it is time for harvest. But when the very last martyr is killed as they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs - then judgment time comes, as seen in the 6th seal. It is the start of the day of His wrath or the day of the Lord. And it is before the 70th week begins: with the 7th seal.

So does John write after he has finished writing of the 5th seal? Of course the 6th: judgment time! So the 5th seal gives away the time of the rapture: it will come a moment before the 6th seal is broken. And the great earthquake of the 6th seal -  a worldwide earthquake, will be caused by the raising of the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ are buried around the world, so when they rise, there will be a worldwide earthquake, and it will be Paul's "sudden destruction." Those living in the light will get raptured, and so will get to "live together with Him," while those living in darkness will get caught in the "sudden destruction" earthquake. They cannot escape, for they will not get raptured. The pretrib rapture IS GOD'S ESCAPE PLAN! (See Luke 21:36)

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

You are right and you don't even understand it. Rome is not the Last Beast, that is the Anti-Christ/Little Horn. Rome is the Fourth or Sixth Beast Kingdom. I really don't know why I continue, its apparent you will never grasp it, I have seen this before, people so absorbed in their preconceived, passed down traditions of men, they can't see the forest for the trees. The sad thing is this tradition is believed by like 2 percent of Christendom, if that, its way out there stuff.

Its way out there stuff? I'm sure the condescending tone in your post will help immensely. It's not a surprise that Christendom doesn't believe. They are mostly spiritually lazy. All they want is the easiest way out, clean, neat and effortless.

 

The Proof is in the PUDDING.......Keep closing your eyes to the facts. Lets see, these BEAST Countries did not all Conquer, enslave or rule Israel. OR DID THEY?

1. Egypt - Enslaved Israel for many years (Maybe 400 years), tried to destroy them in the Red Sea.

2. Assyria - Took the 10 Tribes away and tried to conquer all of Judea.

3. Babylon - Besieged Jerusalem and took them to Babylon as slaves for close to 70 years.

4. Persia - Persia ruled the Jewish peoples and took them as slaves before setting them free.

5. Greece - 323 BCE-128 BCE and further in reality. 

6. Rome - Ancient Jewish History: Roman Rule (63 BCE - 313 CE) Jesus died, the Temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.

While the above is from scripture, it's simply a list of similarities between actors and not proof Rome, or Greece, or the EU, is where the beast rises. There is no mention of Syria or Egypt in Dan 2. The Empires in the statue began with Babylon and are designed to show succession of kingdoms in a particular region. That they persecuted the Jews may be fact, but it's not an attribute that is mentioned in the interpretation of the Statue in Dan 2. So.....this line of thinking is forced and not natural. So again....no proof of anything here.

 

These all have one thing in Common, they all Conquered, Enslaved or Ruled Israel. The Old Testament was a book about ISRAEL !! It is about Israel, that is why they are seen by Daniel via the Angel as BEASTS. China is not a Beast, nor the USA, Russia, British Empire nor the Ottoman Empire. Why would God call them a Beast when the Jewish peoples were spread all over the world? What does that have to do with anything? Where is the scriptural proof?  

A BEAST is a Nation that conquers Israel. That is why the Beast in Rev. 13 is a Seven Headed Beast. . Please explain why the 7 heads mean 'conquer Israel'.

All Atheists are OF SATAN....And they do not even know it. Being against God means you are of Satan the god of this world. .Atheism does not mean 'against God'. That would be anti-God. Atheism is the belief system that says 'no god', of any kind. 

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Yes, he is an atheist, he shall honor the god of war, which only means he will be a war monger. 

All people  of this world are directed by Satan, All people? Including Revelation Man? Why is this not a surprise? they are mostly oblivious to it. These homosexuals and atheists who so seem to HATE GOD and all he stands for, and then say there is no God and we are all believing in fairy tales. Do you think Satan is directing them? I do, they just don't have a clue. The False Prophet is a different tale, he is going to be a Jewish False Prophet, I imagine he actually realizes he is serving Satan, but he is going to get the whole world to worship the BEAST (The Man/Anti-Christ) as the ONLY GOD !

This is because I understand what s coming via scriptures, You clearly do not. thus I can use mere logic to fill in the details. Islam is going to be destroyed, she is False Religion along with all other Religions.

If you were going to be a dictator and demand to be worshiped as GOD in 2 years, what would be your number 1 plan? 

1. Co-opt all Religions including Muslims to worship me as GOD ?  (You should see me laughing) Good luck with that, they would have you killed for calling yourself God in about 5 minutes. 

2. Make a plan to create a (False) PEACE where all Arabs and Jews would have to place their PEACE and SECURITY in your hands, that way when you get ready to make your move you can be swift and decisive. They will never see it coming. Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart,and by peace shall destroy many: 

You think in the secular mode. The beast is not taking over through military might or false peace. He is going to be empowered by Satan and worshiped after the deadly head wound is healed.

Rev 13, "3 The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. ⁴ People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast...."

You see that? The beast gets authority directly from the dragon, not a country or organization. The beast is going to receive a miraculous healing vaulting him into the premier spot on the world stage. This is how the beast will secure the peace, through spiritual authority that will make him look like a god by the acts of the false prophet.

I already understand the truths......then I use logic, this Anti-Christ is not going to co-opt other Religions, he is going to destroy them. That is why 2 Billion people are killed. You guys thinking the Anti-Christ is going to bring all religions together under one umbrella I'm not thinking that and I never said such a thing. is just not what dictators do brother, they kill people and intimidate them. They don't sing kumbaya.  He will then force all to worship him as God or die. TWO BILLION PEOPLE DIE.....Maybe 1.5 Billion, because the Church is Raptured, so a 1/4 of 6 Billion would be 1.5 Billion. . Many more than that will lose their lives. We destroyed Iraq in a few weeks, if we had of been RUTHLESS like a Dictator is, we could have made them come to heel very quick. After all of the ghastly murders, people are going to be scared to death. Its not going to be Kumbaya.

 

 

 

 

[BobRyan]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

As I have said before, i understand what you are saying, I reject your conclusions on non factual grounds.

It is not self explanatory that Rome is the final empire. The idea that Rome is a beast kingdom begins with forcing empires into the interpretation of the statue in Dan 2, and erroneous interpretation of Rev 17:10.

Both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 point to Rome and in Daniel 7 Rome is the 4th beast in the sequence with Medo-Persia and Greece being "named" -- leaving it to the reader to find that Rome follows Greece.

Rev 13 relies on that and we see the beast descriptions in Daniel 7 - repeated in the intro of Rev 13.

Rev 12 points to 1260 years of the dark ages that begin some time after Christ ascends to heaven and sometime before the Papacy receives the deadly wound of loss of its power, its papal states and its pope taken captive. 1798

 

One news outlet referred to the partial recovery of the Vatican from that "wound" - this way -

Quote

THE San Francisco Chronicle, Tuesday, February 12 1929, exploded with the headlines, "Mussolini and Gaspari Sign Historic Roman Pact. . . . Healed Wound of Many Years." It was hardly likely that the correspondent and the editors of the San Francisco Chronicle had any concept of the significance of the dramatic event they were reporting. The previous day, February 11 1929, Cardinal Gasparri (representing pope Pius XI) and Benito Mussolini (representing King Victor Emmanuel III) signed the Lateran Treaty.

When the nation of Italy was reunited, in 1870, by Garibaldi, no temporal kingdom was allotted to the Papacy. In fact, the Papal States were forcibly wrenched from Vatican control and ceded to the kingdom of Italy. This festering sore left a major rift between the Italian monarchy and the Papacy. As a protest against the decision of the Italian monarchy to cede the Papal States to the kingdom of Italy, no pope had set foot outside the Vatican from 1870 to 1929; however, things changed with the signing of the Lateran Treaty. Among other things, the kingdom of Italy guaranteed the international sovereignty of the Holy See, giving it absolute and sole jurisdiction over the Vatican State. This territory was merely 108 acres. The words chosen for the San Francisco Chronicle report were most remarkable. These included "healed the wound of many years" and "healing the wound which had festered since 1870." These very words paralleled the words used in Scripture almost two thousand years before in the prophecy of the revival and the renaissance of the Papacy.

 

And since this is the 500th year of the Protestant Reformation -

Luther - "We are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist" (Martin Luther).  D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9. 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think Rev. 12 tells us ANYTHING about history, except the first five verses that speak of how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus when He was a child. 

You seem to be saying that it is not telling us anything about history except that it starts off obviously telling us about the history of the nation-church of Israel and the birth of Christ and then Christ being taken up into heaven . etc etc ... all of that his in fact history that even you admit to being in the chapter.

 

The chapter does not end there of course - because the chapter goes on to describe the persecuted church of the NT being persecuted all during the 1260 years of dark ages that follow.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

From there John is only a second or two after the abomination that divides the week, Then John shows us what the Dragon or Satan will be doing in the last half of the week.

There is no divided-week-abomination mentioned in Rev 12.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Since they are written in a given order, you will find it impossible to prove your theory of rearrangement using scripture. You can try though! ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

Is that so? Challenge accepted

 

This is the seventh seal.

 

Rev 8:5

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

 

This is the seventh trumpet

 

Rev 11:19

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

 

This is the seventh bowl

 

Rev 16:17-18

¹⁷ The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” ¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake.

 

The seventh seal and the seventh trumpet have the same description. The scene for the seventh seal is in heaven before the throne;

Rev 8

^{2 "}And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

^3" Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people,on the golden altar in front of the throne. ⁴ The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

So there are two of the main events that occur with the same attributes, lightning, rumblings, thunder, earthquake and the same setting. I know you're thinking it's a stretch but it's not, the seals really mirror the trumpets i.e., The sixth seal must occur in close proximity the 7th trumpet as the description of the seventh trumpet contains,  

Rev 11:18

" The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—"

At the sixth seal we also see a great earthquake, so great the mountains and islands disappeared,

Rev 6

¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

We see the same kind of earthquake at the seventh bowl,

Rev 16

¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. ¹⁹ The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

This has to be that same earthquake because if the mountains fall at the sixth seal, the cities must also collapse, meaning the seventh bowl must be poured out nearly simultaneously with the sixth seal. There is also a great hailstorm that occurs at both the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. Now I suppose there could be two unrelated hailstorms but with all the other similar attributes I doubt it.

So the 7th trump, the 7th bowl and the 6th seal all occur at the same time or very nearly. Conventional thought says trumps follow seals and bowls follow trumps. From the first reading of the seal we see they span all the way to the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, which would be well after the midpoint. This means some trumps already sounded and in the case of the 5th trumpet the people of God are still on earth, sealed in their foreheads, so the Lord has not yet come to gather them. The 5th trump must therefore sound before the 6th seal.

I think there's a few more examples but this should suffice.