The Elect

[Zemke]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

No doubt .... Davida is correct

The Lord's discourse is centered upon Israel during the coming tribulation

But only to those who hold to a certain perspective. The only way one would think that is to be taught it after being indoctrinated into despensational thinking. The bible doesn't flow or read like that. There is nothing in the text to set the reader to believe he is speaking to anyone other than His disciples. Therefore anyone reading and seeing the signs in the heaven and Jesus in the clouds with a trump and angels and reading Thesselonians would be able to see the very simple and clear understanding this is our rescue right before Gods wrath in the trumpets and bowls. Matthew 24 fits very well with the seals. Babes can understand this but intellectual line upon line, precept upon precept, proof text intense layers of theological debate never will.

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

It is a Jewish context, because it is talking about fleeing from  Judea on the Sabbath, it is talking about the defiling of the Temple.  All of that is Jewish, not Christian.  This not about the Church.   The "Church"  didn't exist when Jesus was speaking and so the disciples would have received Jesus words as referring to "the Church." 

 

 

When they wrote these things the "church" did exist, and keep in mind that Jesus also specifically told them that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things, and bring to remembrance all things He said to them.  So they knew exactly what they were saying, and I disagree that Matthew 24 in any way suggests it is only for Jews.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

What it agrees with is Revelation 12 when the Jews who  have been regathered to the land will flee to the wilderness and be protected by God, there.  That is during the Tribulation, when the believers will be slaughtered by the AC

 

Exactly, I agree with you 100% on this.  The 1/3 that will come to Jesus are preserved in the wilderness for the entire 3 1/2 year period, out of satan's reach.  So the enemy turns his wrath on believers, wages war.  The other 2/3 of Israel will be "cut off and die" according to Zechariah, which of course means they will not turn to Jesus, because being cut off from the vine is clearly defined by Jesus as being thrown into the fire.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, and in that context, it refers to believers.   But God also calls the nation of Israel, is elect which I have also proven from Scripture and you have conveniently ignored.

 

I never ignore scripture, and I also never said the elect did not include the Jews.  You must not have read the thread, because I have clearly stated that the elect includes both Jew and Gentile.  In your post to me, you neglected to include the Gentile part, and what you said below is what I responded to.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And as a side note, God refers to the Jewish people/Israel has his elect: (Isa. 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22 )

 

I was clarifying that God not only refers to the Jews as His elect, but also the Gentiles who believe.  So there is really no need to accuse me of ignoring scripture, particularly when I am well aware of the scripture you referenced and what it says.  Isaiah 42:1 is speaking of Jesus, the other passages speak of His chosen people.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't see it as illogical, as many Rabbis read the NT.  They read it to refute it, but they still read it and God is still planting seeds.   Some Jews know the NT better than a lot Christians. It's no different than Atheists who read the Bible to refute and some end up coming to faith.   And during the Tribulation, they will be reminded that we said these things would come upon the earth and all of those Bibles that Christians left behind, will be read.

 

Considering that 2/3 of them will be cut off and die, I would disagree.  I would also like to point out that those in Judea are told to flee, to not even go back to their houses for their cloaks, so suggesting they will have time to go around collecting bibles is quite a stretch.  And assuming that Rabbi's or those out to disprove the bible will be amongst the 1/3 who will survive is not impossible, but certainly not a guarantee.

God bless

[wingnut-]

7 hours ago, Davida said:

Maybe I misunderstand you .....Wingnut how come we know what He spoke to His disciples privately?   

 

I'm not completely sure I understand the question, so I will answer both possibilities I can think of.

 

Matthew 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

7 hours ago, Davida said:

Matt 24 is speaking of the main purpose of the  Tribulation is for the Salvation of the Nation of Israel - the elect , the remnant who will be Saved.

 

I don't disagree that part of His purpose is to take the remnant aside and bring them into the fold, but I am not sure that is the main purpose.  I think overall the main purpose of the tribulation is to eliminate the enemy and all who follow him.  More of a purification than anything, so the original design can be restored with no more sin and perfection can remain forever.

God bless

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, wingnut- said:

 

When they wrote these things the "church" did exist, and keep in mind that Jesus also specifically told them that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things, and bring to remembrance all things He said to them.  So they knew exactly what they were saying, and I disagree that Matthew 24 in any way suggests it is only for Jews.

When it was written, but not when Jesus speaking to the disciples.   I am saying that when Jesus spoke these words, the church did not exist and at that time, it was not something that was even on their radar.   Everything about Matthew 24 is Jewish, and I have pointed to all of the Jewish references throughout the chapter.  Nothing in that pertains to the Church, but to Israel during the tribulation.  That is the line of thought in that chapter.

 

Quote

 

Exactly, I agree with you 100% on this.  The 1/3 that will come to Jesus are preserved in the wilderness for the entire 3 1/2 year period, out of satan's reach.  So the enemy turns his wrath on believers, wages war.  The other 2/3 of Israel will be "cut off and die" according to Zechariah, which of course means they will not turn to Jesus, because being cut off from the vine is clearly defined by Jesus as being thrown into the fire.

 

The numbers of which will die or not isn't really the point.  And there will be many Jews who turn to Christ during the Tribulation and many who don't.  Same with the Gentiles. 

Quote

 

I never ignore scripture, and I also never said the elect did not include the Jews.  You must not have read the thread, because I have clearly stated that the elect includes both Jew and Gentile.  In your post to me, you neglected to include the Gentile part, and what you said below is what I responded to.

 

I was clarifying that God not only refers to the Jews as His elect, but also the Gentiles who believe.  So there is really no need to accuse me of ignoring scripture, particularly when I am well aware of the scripture you referenced and what it says.  Isaiah 42:1 is speaking of Jesus, the other passages speak of His chosen people.

 

God can refer to the elect and only be referring to Israel in a given context.   Not every reference to the elect is Israel and not every reference to the elect is the Church.  Context determines what God is referring to and in Matt. 24 the word "elect" is used to refer to Israel, period.
 

Quote

 

Considering that 2/3 of them will be cut off and die, I would disagree.  I would also like to point out that those in Judea are told to flee, to not even go back to their houses for their cloaks, so suggesting they will have time to go around collecting bibles is quite a stretch.  And assuming that Rabbi's or those out to disprove the bible will be amongst the 1/3 who will survive is not impossible, but certainly not a guarantee.

God bless

 

All of that is really beside the point, though.  There may be Jews who recall hearing Christians speaking of exactly what is going to happen.   God has a way of getting His word to people.  He isn't limited in how He can do that, so I am not really too worried about that.

The bottom line is that Matt. 24 is speaking of Israel during the Tribulation and there is simply no getting around that.

[wingnut-]

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

When it was written, but not when Jesus speaking to the disciples.   I am saying that when Jesus spoke these words, the church did not exist and at that time, it was not something that was even on their radar.

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

God knew exactly what He wanted to say, and their memories are not in question, or what they knew when they wrote it.  I think they understood exactly what He meant when it was written.  Are you suggesting they wrote all this down as it was said?

 

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Everything about Matthew 24 is Jewish, and I have pointed to all of the Jewish references throughout the chapter.  Nothing in that pertains to the Church, but to Israel during the tribulation.  That is the line of thought in that chapter.

 

The only thing you pointed out is that those in Judea are told to flee, and considering there are Messianic Jews living in Israel covers that.  Honestly all I see in regards to this only being for the Jews is assumption.  What other references are you speaking of?

 

12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

God can refer to the elect and only be referring to Israel in a given context.   Not every reference to the elect is Israel and not every reference to the elect is the Church.  Context determines what God is referring to and in Matt. 24 the word "elect" is used to refer to Israel, period.

 

Again, this is simply an assumption.  God does not change, He knew the end from the beginning and I disagree that the elect ever means anything other than believers, His chosen people.  You consistently speak about the fact that the Old Testament is always pointing to the New Testament and Jesus specifically, the same applies here, which is why Peter references Isaiah when he clearly defines the Gentiles as being part of the elect.  Or are you suggesting that every single Jew from the Old Testament are believers?

 

17 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

All of that is really beside the point, though.  There may be Jews who recall hearing Christians speaking of exactly what is going to happen.   God has a way of getting His word to people.  He isn't limited in how He can do that, so I am not really too worried about that.

 

I agree that God could use any method to speak to them that He wishes.  But ask yourself why it would be necessary to take them aside for 3 1/2 years if that were already accomplished?  It would appear that scripture tells us the how already.

God bless

[Guest shiloh357]

12 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

God knew exactly what He wanted to say, and their memories are not in question, or what they knew when they wrote it.  I think they understood exactly what He meant when it was written.  Are you suggesting they wrote all this down as it was said?

No, what I am saying is that when Jesus was speaking on the Mt. of Olives, years before it was all written down, there was no "Church."  The notion of a "Church" was not the disciples radar.   They were asking Jesus about when he was going to bring about His Messianic Kingdom and the end of the age.  From the perspective of the disciples, Jesus was supposed to establish His Kingdom in Jerusalem and bring about what we call "the millennium" or what they see as the Messianic Kingdom a time of world peace.  That was what was prophesied and that was what they were looking for.

Jesus was answering their question, with more information than they were asking for.   Jesus is speaking in future terms about what lay in store for Israel.   And there is a sense in which Jesus is looking over the heads of the disciples and speaking to a future generation about what we call the Tribulation.    He is speaking to Jews, not to Gentiles.   I realize Gentile pride wants to make everything about Christian Gentiles, but that is neither the audience or subject matter.  

The Church is not here during the Tribulation and the Tribulation believers are being slaughtered in great numbers.  The 24th chapter of Matthew deals with Israel during the Tribulation that is the immediate context and I have proven that.   

Quote

The only thing you pointed out is that those in Judea are told to flee, and considering there are Messianic Jews living in Israel covers that.  Honestly all I see in regards to this only being for the Jews is assumption.  What other references are you speaking of?

Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation that will defile the Temple, meaning that the locale is Israel/Jerusalem.  That has no meaning to the Church.  It would not be relevant to a Church raptured away and martyrs who are already slaughtered by the Antichrist.  He aslo said to pray that their flight into wilderness not be on the Sabbath.   Again, not really relevant to Gentile Christians.  

 

Quote

Again, this is simply an assumption.  God does not change, He knew the end from the beginning and I disagree that the elect ever means anything other than believers, His chosen people.  You consistently speak about the fact that the Old Testament is always pointing to the New Testament and Jesus specifically, the same applies here, which is why Peter references Isaiah when he clearly defines the Gentiles as being part of the elect.  Or are you suggesting that every single Jew from the Old Testament are believers?

I have already proven from the Scriptures that God calls Israel His elect.   "Elect" doesn't mean "believer."  It means "chosen" and God has not rescinded that when it comes to Israel because He still has a prophetic future for Israel that He has chosen  for them to fulfill.  

The term "elect" is applied to both Israel and the Church in different contexts.   God has elected Israel for a particular calling and purpose that must be fulfilled.   He has elected us as Christians, as well and we have a different destiny has His elect.   It really isn't that hard to understand.   

Quote

 

I agree that God could use any method to speak to them that He wishes.  But ask yourself why it would be necessary to take them aside for 3 1/2 years if that were already accomplished?  It would appear that scripture tells us the how already.

God bless

 

That's God's problem to solve, not mine.  However He does it is surely fine with me.

[angels4u]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, what I am saying is that when Jesus was speaking on the Mt. of Olives, years before it was all written down, there was no "Church."  The notion of a "Church" was not the disciples radar.   They were asking Jesus about when he was going to bring about His Messianic Kingdom and the end of the age.  From the perspective of the disciples, Jesus was supposed to establish His Kingdom in Jerusalem and bring about what we call "the millennium" or what they see as the Messianic Kingdom a time of world peace.  That was what was prophesied and that was what they were looking for.

Jesus was answering their question, with more information than they were asking for.   Jesus is speaking in future terms about what lay in store for Israel.   And there is a sense in which Jesus is looking over the heads of the disciples and speaking to a future generation about what we call the Tribulation.    He is speaking to Jews, not to Gentiles.   I realize Gentile pride wants to make everything about Christian Gentiles, but that is neither the audience or subject matter.  

The Church is not here during the Tribulation and the Tribulation believers are being slaughtered in great numbers.  The 24th chapter of Matthew deals with Israel during the Tribulation that is the immediate context and I have proven that.    The fact that you can't accept that reality is not my problem.

 

Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation that will defile the Temple, meaning that the locale is Israel/Jerusalem.  That has no meaning to the Church.  It would not be relevant to a Church raptured away and martyrs who are already slaughtered by the Antichrist.  He aslo said to pray that their flight into wilderness not be on the Sabbath.   Again, not really relevant to Gentile Christians.  

 

I have already proven from the Scriptures that God calls Israel His elect.   "Elect" doesn't mean "believer."  It means "chosen" and God has not rescinded that when it comes to Israel because He still has a prophetic future for Israel that He has chosen  for them to fulfill.  

That's God's problem to solve, not mine.  However He does it is surely fine with me.

Agree with how you're explaining this as I believe too that Matthew 24 was written for Israel, the Tribulation saints will face persecution ..

Israel is His elected people , that will never change ,we're grafted in by grace and because of their unbelieve the gospel was preached to the Gentiles.

 

Deuteronomy 7:6"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Exodus 19:4-6'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Psalm 135:For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession.

Isaiah 41:8-9"But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend, You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.

Isaiah 43:10"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:1-2"But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 45:4"For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.

Amos 3:2"You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Romans 11:1-18I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 

[angels4u]

20 hours ago, Davida said:

Maybe I misunderstand you .....Wingnut how come we know what He spoke to His disciples privately?  because it is written down for all His followers to come and all those who would read the Bible to see GOD's Promises spoken before they are fulfilled. God is telling His bride , His plans for them  Gentile and Jew.  Matt 24 is speaking of the main purpose of the  Tribulation is for the Salvation of the Nation of Israel - the elect , the remnant who will be Saved.  

Amen Davida, it's all about Israel and their Salvation!

All Israel Shall Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”…

Berean Study Bible Roman 11:26

[enoob57]

The accuracy of the context is Israel ... Shiloh has addressed the hermeneutic completely to nth of Biblical narative on subject. We must let the Bible speak alone in context and set parameters that is justified by the grammitcal device throughout context. It simply is what it is and those standing there will not be disappointed when they come into His presence with the understanding... We have only two places to stand on the authority: The Word; Our own- there's no guessing which God is keeping!

[wingnut-]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, what I am saying is that when Jesus was speaking on the Mt. of Olives, years before it was all written down, there was no "Church."  The notion of a "Church" was not the disciples radar.   They were asking Jesus about when he was going to bring about His Messianic Kingdom and the end of the age.  From the perspective of the disciples, Jesus was supposed to establish His Kingdom in Jerusalem and bring about what we call "the millennium" or what they see as the Messianic Kingdom a time of world peace.  That was what was prophesied and that was what they were looking for.

 

Who wrote scripture?  Who is the Word of God?  Believing that God inspired all of what was written is not something to be discarded when convenient and implemented when it is.  God knew exactly what He wanted to say, and the New Testament, particularly the gospels, were written for all of mankind.  Picking and choosing what is or isn't for us simply won't suffice, again, another argument you make when it suits.  What answer they expected is not the point, the answer they were given is the correct answer to their questions.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I realize Gentile pride wants to make everything about Christian Gentiles, but that is neither the audience or subject matter.  

 

Is it possible to have a discussion with you minus the cheap shots?  First I ignore scripture, now it must be pride?  Exactly how does pride fit into this?  I'm so proud I want to suffer persecution?  Ridiculous accusation and completely uncalled for.

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation that will defile the Temple, meaning that the locale is Israel/Jerusalem.  That has no meaning to the Church.  It would not be relevant to a Church raptured away and martyrs who are already slaughtered by the Antichrist.  He aslo said to pray that their flight into wilderness not be on the Sabbath.   Again, not really relevant to Gentile Christians.  

 

Daniel spoke of it long before the New Testament was written, so it wouldn't be necessary to put it in the New Testament if it was only for Israel would it?  Again your assumption is that the church is "raptured", but of course that word does not appear in scripture does it?  It means catching away/ gathering, and every time that appears it is in regards to His coming.  Another problem you have here is that in the book of Revelation there is only one mention of anyone repenting, and that is in chapter 11 as a result of the second woe.  Nowhere else do you see anything but defiance and refusal to turn to God.  What you suggest is that some large group that lacked the faith to be removed are suddenly going to turn to God, with no evidence to support this claim.  In fact, evidence suggests a falling away, also known as the great apostasy, which requires a degree of faith in the first place for one to turn away.

One other important detail you are overlooking from Matthew 24 in regards to the 'abomination of desolation'.

 

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

 

You read it right?  So did I.  Still not for us you say?  Why would we need to understand if it isn't for us?

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I have already proven from the Scriptures that God calls Israel His elect.   "Elect" doesn't mean "believer."  It means "chosen" and God has not rescinded that when it comes to Israel because He still has a prophetic future for Israel that He has chosen  for them to fulfill.  

The term "elect" is applied to both Israel and the Church in different contexts.   God has elected Israel for a particular calling and purpose that must be fulfilled.   He has elected us as Christians, as well and we have a different destiny has His elect.   It really isn't that hard to understand.

 

And I have proven that the church is also His elect.  What part of being grafted in suddenly becomes inapplicable?  And why does Paul tell us multiple times that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile?  Chosen people are believers, that is the whole point, it is the elect that makes up the body, or the bride, which Peter is very clear about.

 

I Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

The New Covenant did away with the old one, trying to reverse it is like asking to no longer be grafted in.  We were grafted in, and it is permanent, not simply undone when it seems inconvenient.  It was always the plan, and that is clear when you consider that not all of the Jews from the Old Testament were truly His.  A point I made that you didn't address, and that is because you know it is true and causes serious issues to your theory.

I agree that there are two different purposes for Israel and the church in the end times, Israel is told to flee, and we are told to stand.

God bless